a31ford Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 Greetings All ! (Almost Seasons, even !) Many have had issues with stuck channels (full or partially lit). For what it's worth, (And those that want to know....) I'm going to speak about these two components (Triacs and Optocouplers). Triacs, are a 3 wire device, they are inserted "INLINE" with the load (one wire in, one wire out, and a "trigger" wire), the trigger wire needs to be connected to the "line" side of things, BUT, must be through some form of "ISOLATOR" (Hence the MOC-3023, optocoupler). Triacs themselves are really only two gate controlled diodes side-by-side in the same package (you can do the same function with a PAIR of SCR's but that is "off topic". The two diodes are connected "opposite directions" this way you get the full 120v AC (Alternating Current) through the triac when it is triggered on (If you used an SCR in place (NOT two, only one) you would only get 60 volts @ 30 hz. The Triac is a very simple device, for 99% of the problems it will only have 6 states of....... A) Off, no current flow (Normal Operation). Triggered (at "X" trigger level), depending on what trigger level, the triac will conduct "X" amount of voltage (in BOTH directions of the AC cycle). (Normal Operation). C) ONE of the internal diodes shorted (only one), In this case the channel will be on 50% brightness, ALL the time. (Partial Problem). D) BOTH of the internal diodes shorted, In this case the channel will be on 100% brightness, ALL the time. (Full Problem). E) ONE of the internal diodes OPEN (only one), In this case the channel will ONLY go to 50% brightness (Partial Problem). F) BOTH of the internal diodes OPEN, In this case the channel will Simply NOT WORK (DEAD), (Full Problem). The above is 99% of the problems that occur with triacs. Optocouplers. Optocouplers on the other hand, come in many types, the MOC-3023 Used on the LOR, DIY, CTB-16-PC Kits are dimmable (proportional input voltage) units, the 6 pins are as follows, If you understand even basic electronics, you will see that pin 1 is the + side of a LED, pin 2 is the - of the same LED, 3 is no connection, pin 4 is connected to a triac ? YES, actually it's a light controlled triac (NOT a diac as some people call it) (A diac has only 2 inputs, the item in the MOC has 3 connections, pin 4, pin 6, AND the light input from the LED). THE isolation from the 120VAC comes from the fact that there is NO electrical connection between the two sides of the MOC, in fact, the isolation (INTERNALLY) is rated at over 2500 volts !, HOWEVER, the outside case CAN be affected by dampness or moisture (this is where keeping them dry, and drying them (the controllers) out with a hairdryer comes in). There are OTHER types of MOC's HOWEVER the MOC-3023 MUST be used in the LOR controllers to keep both the isolation AND dimmability. Other version of MOC's are 3031 (only a switch, NOT dimmable), MOC-3030, connected substrate (NO Isolation), etc, etc, etc. The list goes on, and on. .Here's the thing, OF the 6 basic problems with triacs, the most common is "Stuck on" 100% (blown) from a shorted cord, is the usual cause (triac overheated from too much current). HOWEVER, MANY problems can be attributed to OPTO's as well, the main one being dampness between pins 4 and 5, AND 6, ANY combination of wet in this area will cause "STRANGE THINGS" to happen, random "spastic issues" phantom on/offs, etc. etc, etc. All in all, unless the channel(s) is/are ONLY doing one of the 6 issues listed in the triac section above, I would suspect the MOC instead...... IF you notice, I went out and bought the 6 pin sockets for the MOC's ONLY because of my electronic background AND my former knowledge of optocouplers, for the most part, keeping them (The MOC's) dry would be 99% of the battle......... Greg 4
Santas Helper Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 WOW Greg,That was a very impressive explanation of Triacs and Optos and possible problems related with them. Thank you!!! Tom
Max-Paul Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 Greg, Kudos on your attempt to teach the masses some information that would be new to them. But I have issues with your information. First a SCR outputs only have of a wave form. When in circuit of 120 VAC 60 Hz. When fully turned on the output would still be 120VAC, but only halve of the wave. But still would be 60hz. Where as a Triac will give you a full wave still at 120VAC 60Hz. But how you have both the positive and negative half of the wave form. A common mistake that new people to electric / electronics. Otherwise a good training post.
a31ford Posted November 6, 2013 Author Posted November 6, 2013 (edited) Max, I disagree (Sorry) if that was the case (1/2 waveform giving 120) then why triacs ? just use SCR's the electrical symbol for an SCR is a gated diode, a triac is a DUAL (side by side OPPOSED) gated diode. I stand by what I said, SCR would be 60v 30 CPS (only conducts one way). remember, 0 crossing...... of you only conduct 1/2 the waveform, then only 1/2 the voltage The principal of using a gating diode in a string of lights consisting of bidirectional LED's (red forward bias, green reverse bias) is the exact same as a 1/2 wave rectifier. Greg Edited November 6, 2013 by a31ford
plasmadrive Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 (edited) Gotta go with Max on this one about the frequency. The SCR may only conduct half of the cycle but it is still 60 Cycles per Second. or 60hz. Think about this, if it were a square wave with the bottom being 0v and the the leading edge rise time is at 16.67 ms intervals what would you have? 60hz. Same with the half wave AC waveform. The repeating cycle is still the same time constant. It is not about zero crossing, it is when the cycle repeats. Many wave forms don't cross zero but they still have a frequency. If however you put a full wave bridge in there you would get two repeating positive half cycles in the same 16.67ms, thereby having a 120hz rate. As for the voltage, that is a different story. The voltage is expressed in RMS value Edited November 6, 2013 by plasmadrive 1
a31ford Posted November 6, 2013 Author Posted November 6, 2013 (edited) If you are conducting at only one side of the cycle, I will agree (now that I think about it) still 60 CPS, however, only 30 of the "humps" show within that 60, therefore you only have 1/2 the voltage (60) VPDC (Volts Pulsating DC) so it would be 60 volts in 60 cycles. Math is not my strongpoint for the next few days, time change toasts me.... sine is still sine, 1/2 wave sine, is also still sine, just 1/2 the voltage.... So therefore, I was 1/2 right (the voltage 1/2) and Max was right about the frequency 1/2. Greg Edited November 6, 2013 by a31ford
plasmadrive Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 .637 or .707 x Vpk half wave average, full wave RMS
Ken Benedict Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 Peak, average or RMS, it's still 60Hz with an SCR. Without a full wave bridge preceeding it.
plasmadrive Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 Peak, average or RMS, it's still 60Hz with an SCR. Without a full wave bridge preceeding it.Unless of course you are in another country where the freq is only 50hz
a31ford Posted November 7, 2013 Author Posted November 7, 2013 (edited) Like I said in my post #6, YES, I agree, 60hz, BUT only 60 volts....... I live in THE country (not A country... LMAO) it SHOULD be 60 hz, BUT my kill-a-watt says the line is 59.3 HZ (Oh, and BTW, it even reads 60 volts when an SCR is triggering the circuit). Greg P.S. Plasma you crack me up !! Edited November 7, 2013 by a31ford
-klb- Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 How about the idea that an opto triac can dim in proportion to voltage? The key spec that allows dimming is that the opto triac can be fired at any phase angle, not just zero and 180. Most opto triacs only switch on at zero crossings, and are only suitable for on/off control. The input is still digital, LED on, or LED off for either version. But with non zero crossing versions, the micro controller can detect the zero crossings, and after a suitable delay trigger the opto, which will trigger the main triac. Then it turns off the signal, knowing that the triac can't turn off until current goes to zero again. So the less delay, the more on time, and the brighter it is, the longer the delay is, the less on time and brightness you get.
Ken Benedict Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 (edited) Like I said in my post #6, YES, I agree, 60hz, BUT only 60 volts....... I live in THE country (not A country... LMAO) it SHOULD be 60 hz, BUT my kill-a-watt says the line is 59.3 HZ (Oh, and BTW, it even reads 60 volts when an SCR is triggering the circuit). Greg P.S. Plasma you crack me up !! I've heard that even though there are fluctuations in the actual frequency, the total cycles for a 24 hour period should remain the same, to keep clocks accurate and other stuff. Southern California was 50Hz until 1948: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_frequency There's also enough leakage current through most lighting dimmers to randomly fire strobes and "flicker" type bulbs.Hence the use of artificial loads to drain it down: http://forums.lightorama.com/index.php?/topic/28849-i-am-at-a-complete-loss-dimming-led-anomaly/page-1#entry269278 And "dimmer noise" is mostly caused by the high rate of voltage increase when the triac fires: http://upload.wikime...d_rectifier.gif Better dimmers use a choke coil to keep the increase rate down: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductor#Applications Just more triac trivia. Edited November 7, 2013 by Ken Benedict
plasmadrive Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 I did not know that about southern Cal being 50hz... wow! that is wild.. 1
plasmadrive Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 Like I said in my post #6, YES, I agree, 60hz, BUT only 60 volts....... I live in THE country (not A country... LMAO) it SHOULD be 60 hz, BUT my kill-a-watt says the line is 59.3 HZ (Oh, and BTW, it even reads 60 volts when an SCR is triggering the circuit). Greg P.S. Plasma you crack me up !! Here in THE country (hee hee).. your Kill-a-Watt is most likely reading the AC component. When you have only one SCR firing on that AC circuit you in reality have pulsating DC. Not sure if the KaW will read that accurately. Greg, glad I can make you smile!
a31ford Posted November 8, 2013 Author Posted November 8, 2013 I did not know that about southern Cal being 50hz... wow! that is wild.. So they DID fall of the continent ? WAY too HIGH-BROW in the humor department...... Greg
a31ford Posted November 8, 2013 Author Posted November 8, 2013 KLB, you hit the nail on the head ! Greg How about the idea that an opto triac can dim in proportion to voltage?The key spec that allows dimming is that the opto triac can be fired at any phase angle, not just zero and 180. Most opto triacs only switch on at zero crossings, and are only suitable for on/off control. The input is still digital, LED on, or LED off for either version. But with non zero crossing versions, the micro controller can detect the zero crossings, and after a suitable delay trigger the opto, which will trigger the main triac. Then it turns off the signal, knowing that the triac can't turn off until current goes to zero again. So the less delay, the more on time, and the brighter it is, the longer the delay is, the less on time and brightness you get.
Max-Paul Posted November 10, 2013 Posted November 10, 2013 What you might be confusing is that even if you only have half of the wave. The voltage is still 120 volts. You really need to use an oscilloscope to see this. Unlike D.C. your reference is always changing, not stable like a ground wire in a D.C. circuit. When and if you ever build your own LED string you will then might understand what is what. And to answer your question as to why we dont use SCRs is that it is only half wave and will only conduct for half of a wave. Where as a triac will conduct for a full wave. This is when both are driven on for 100%. One could cobble together two SCRs and get a triac out of it. Geez, look your own drawing and if you cant see that. Then you really need help. As you can see, others have already proven you wrong about your 30 Hz and back me on this same part of it. I think that a few have also tried to tell you that that one half of the wave is still going to be 120 VAC not some vodu magic that will drop down the voltage. Sure you might be seeing 60 volts with a meter. But that meter also does averages, not peaks. Only a scope will show peaks. Again I ask, so where did you get that E.E. from? Some on-line school? I got my education the old fashion way, hands on at a VoTech.
a31ford Posted November 10, 2013 Author Posted November 10, 2013 Max ... you have to get out more..... Line Cord, Terminal Block, and BECKMAN CIRCUITMATE Digital (in my world, Beckman is a trusted name in test equipment) Across the white and black (NOTE which side of the diode the red lead is on...... ....NOW, on the "far end" of the Diode (Diode is NOW in circuit) NOTE that the setting is AC 200 volts on the meter..... (zoom in on the photo if you have to)......NOW... the same stuff on 200 DC volts (NOT ac, the meter is now set for DC). NOTE; the meter reads 0 DC (as it should on an AC circuit) ...AND NOW.... on the FAR end of the diode.... Max....(and others, Sorry Max) Do the SAME tests yourself I also own the following DMM's (And notice that they ALL read within .2 of a DC volt of each other..... and YES, even a SIMPSON 635 Analog, meter..... (the DE FACTO-Standard, of true RMS meters.........)..... Sorry Max (and others) but I built lighting systems for rock bands when I was younger.... I DO know what I'm talking about. Greg
a31ford Posted November 10, 2013 Author Posted November 10, 2013 the above Simpson meter reads correct, 54 pulsating DC volts, PULSATING, that meter cost me over 600 dollars when I bought it back in 1974. it is STILL accurate today.... PULSATING (half wave AC) is still an RMS voltage, the Simpson is actually reading the correct real value, where as the cheaper DMM's (Fluke being cheap ??? What !) are NOT RMS corrected line the Simpson is. The DMM's are treating the voltage as DC (real DC), which is NOT really correct with a single diode ( or an SCR. ) in circuit................ Greg
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