P5 Panels

[rick gurnee]

Good luck, Jim.  I hope  it works.  By the way, here are the latest versions of the software.

Receiver Type 5A 5A-75E/5A-75B V13.39（Normal）

LED Vision 9.2

FPP v 7.5 (just released January 12, 2024)

I got my Gigabit switch and it works like a charm.  What surprised me is that without the switch the port is 100 megabits but it shows 1 gigabit when I plug the switch in.  If that's the case, when I configure my color light card, can't I just plug into the switch.  I will have nothing else plugged into the switch, other than the PC itself.  during my Christmas show I will have several cat5/6 cables plugged into the switch.

So it looks like I won't need the usb to 1 gigabit adapter on my PC. (I'll still need it for the Raspberry Pi).  Just for the fun of it, I tried it on the PC and ran into some problems.  When I first plugged it in, the switch reverted back to 100 megabits and I couldn't talk to the device on the adapter port.  I then installed the driver that came with it and plugged it back in.  This time the switch stayed at 1 gigabits.  Still couldn't talk to the device, but I noticed the IP assignment was set to DHCP.  I changed that to manual and gave it an IP address (different than the switch) and everything worked fine.  I'm not sure if I had to install the driver but it is working.

[rick gurnee]

My next questions concern power supplies and wire gauge. Just a quick recap: I will be building a 6x8 outdoor P5 panel display. According to Wired Watts each panel can draw up to 6.19 amps at 100% white. Although I will probably not run at 100% (although I believe Steve does) and I won't be turning the whole display to white, I want to calculate what I would need to do to do this safely.

The power distribution board the Wired Watts sells will not support the higher wattage of the outdoor panels, but I have found some fuse boxes on Amazon that will. They support 100 amp input and 30 amp outputs, so I shouldn't have a problem with these.

Using 6 amps per panel, the total output for 48 panels would be 288 amps. Times 5 volts gives us 1,440 watts. The Wired Watts calculator recommends 4 300 watt power supplies and 10 awg wire from the power supply to the fuse box. While I'm sure this would be fine, that is only producing 1,200 watts of power and I could theoretically pull 1,400 watts. Also, some wire size calculators indicate the the wire for 300 watts should be 6 or 8 gauge.

Here are my options: First, I could go with Wire Watts suggestion and get 4 300 watt Meanwell power supplies and use 10 awg wire. Each power supply would power 12 panels. I believe there is nothing wrong with this option.

Second, I could get the Wired Watts 350 watt generic power supplies instead. I might go with 6 or 8 gauge wire if it fits in the power supply.

Third, I could go with 5 Meanwell power supplies. Four would power 10 panels each and one would power 8. This would reduce the maximum output on each power supply to 300 watts. I would use the 10 awg wire.

Forth, I could go with 6 power supplies. Each would power 8 panels. This would reduce the maximum output on each power supply to 240 watts. I might use the 12 awg wire.

Fifth, I would go with 5 power supplies, however, I would position them so that I could wire one pair of panels directly to the power supply. This way the wire from the power supply to the fuse box would carry a maximum of 240 watts.

Finally, I would go with 6 power supplies and position them so that I could wire one pair of panels directly to the power supply. This way the wire from the power supply to the fuse box would carry a maximum of 180 watts. In this case, I could use 12 awg wire.

Of course, I still have to power the Raspberry Pi and the color light card but those draw very little power, so I probably will use 14 awg wire for them.

By the way, the power coming into this display will max out at 12 amps on a 120 Volt circuit. So I'll be able to use a 14 gauge 100 ft extension cord to plug it in.

Which of these options do you think is the best? Or do you have other ideas.

[k6ccc]

Part of power distribution is what is convenient.  As you noted, there are lots of options.  Let me look at a few.  Start off with what your fuse panels will be.  With 48 panels, you need 50 fuse positions (48 panels, the RasPi, and the ColorLight).  Note BTW that P10 panels are often fused in pairs, but P5 are usually fused individually because of the higher current.  So lets say you get 10 or 12 position fuse boards.  You would need five of them.  So you could make it simple and use five 300 - 350 watt power supplies.  That's pretty straight forward.

For a different option, lets say you use 8 position fuse boards.  Now you need seven of them.  How you split up power supplies just got a little more complex.  You would likely go with four 350 watt power supplies and put two fuse boards on each of three fuse boards and the last supply on the last fuse board.  Since you would have some idle fuse positions, I would spread those around on the fuse boards that are paired on a power supply, and the fuse board on it's own supply gets fully loaded.

As far as wire size from the power supplies to the fuse boards, you need to think in current, not wattage.  A 350 watt supply is 70 amps.  You likely will not need to run a very long distance, but with only 5 volts, you can't afford too much voltage drop.  Remember when you calculate resistance, the distance is from the power supply through the equipment and back to the supply.  Since for this part of this, you are only looking at the wire length from the power supply to the fuse panel and back to the supply.  So 10 feet of 10AWG wire has a resistance of 0.01 ohms so with 70 amps, the voltage drop would be 0.70 volts.  You may very well not need that much length.  I would go no lower than 10AWG and if the length is more than a couple feet, look into 8 or even 6 AWG.

As you stated, you are almost certainly NOT going to run a 48 panel P5 matrix at 100% while, but designing your power requirements with the assumption that you will is good engineering practice.

Let me give an example.  My pixel tree is 26 strings of 100 pixels and the star is 270 pixels and that is broken up into three strings of 90 pixels.  The star runs at 100% and uses the last three ports on the controller for power injection, but the tree strings are at 30%.  Each string is driven by either a Falcon F16v3 controller or a 16 position expansion board for the F16v3.  That gives four power inlets (two on the F16v3 and two on the expansion board).  Each of those is powered from a generic 350 watt 5V power supply.  The four power supplies are connected to the controllers via about 12 feet (six out and six back) of 10AWG wire.  The original plan was that the tree strings were going to have power injection at the bottom of each string, and the fuse boards for that would be 10AWG from the same power supplies (configured so that whichever power supply fed the top of the string via the controller would also feed the bottom of the string via the PI).  However the PI part never happened, which is part of why I can't run the pixel strings at more than 30% - else I get low voltage issues at the bottom of the tree.  I have a 14AWG extension cord from a wall outlet to the power supply box for the 120VAC feed to the power supplies.

 

[rick gurnee]

Thanks for the great information.  Actually, the panels from Wired Watts come with a power cord that powers two panels.  Their cord is 14 awg from the fuse box and splits into two 18 awg wires that plugs into the panels.  So I need 26 fuse positions.  I was planning on a single fuse box per power supply and I'm pretty sure I'm going with either 5 or 6 power supplies.  The fuse box I'm looking at has 6 fuses so that gives me 30 or 36 fuse positions.  So I should be OK there.  Each panel draws 6.19 amps max (probably a lot less) so I plan on using 15 amp fuses (or should I use 20 amp fuses).  The distance from where I plan to mount the power supply to each fuse supply should be less than 2 feet, so 10 awg wire should be fine, but I might look into 8 awg if it would fit on the power supply.  

Based on what you told me, here is what I'm thinking now are my constraints.  A maximum of 10 panels (5 pairs) on each power supply.  That would be a maximum of 60 amps or 300 watts.  A maximum of 8 panels (4 pairs) on each fuse box.  That would be a maximum of 48 amps which would allow me to safely use 10 awg wire from the power supply to the fuse box.  Then, I could buy 5 power supplies and nine fuse boxes.  Four of the power supplies would have two  fuse boxes, one with 6 panels (3 fuses) and one with 4 panels (2 fuses).  The last power supply would have one fuse box with 8 panels (4 fuses).  I would make sure that the last power supply and its fuse box are very close to each other.  Even the others would be less than two feet of wire away.

I'm sure this is all overkill.  I suspect, on average, I will draw less than 50 amps, not the 288 I am planning for.  Even during testing, if I turn it all on red, green or blue I will be drawing between 90 and 116 amps.

[TheDucks]

If yo need noodley wire (8 or 6 is pretty stiff), you can use 2@ #10, BUT they need to be exactly the same length or the current will not share. I would  even solder together and use the same Lug. 

Also, no harm turning up the supply to  5.1V (+ 1/2 of the 5% tolerance common for 5V devices) (those fuses will introduce some drop)

I would be careful going higher as your load is not constant, so the voltage needs to stay in range under all powered conditions.

Also I would tie the NEGATIVE (only) of all supplies together at the supply end

[rick gurnee]

Good idea about increase the voltage slightly.  I just tested two of the AlphaPix Flex controllers that I got from HolidayCoro.  One tested 5.07 and the other 5.31.  That second one sounds a little high, but I would have to seriously take it apart to get to the adjustment screw.  It's been running for at least 3 years, so I think I'll leave it. I've got several others that are packed away.  I'll try to remember to test them in the fall.  Some are 5 volt and some 12 volt.

When I build my display, I'll measure each of the power supplies at the source and at the fuse box and adjust accordingly.  I guess I would want the voltage on the panel side of the fuse to be exactly at 5.0 volts.  

I agree with you on the stiffness of 8 and 6 awg.  That's why I'm going to try to keep my amperage where I can use 10 awg. I wondered about using two 10 awg together.  I hadn't thought about making them the same length but that makes sense.

I certainly can tie all of the grounds together.  Can you explain why this should be done?

[stevehoyt]

Since today is power day on this thread, and there is absolutely nothing I could add to what has been said, I thought I would contribute an "all in as built number". 

 I fired up the panel, am going to use it for the 49's game outside in a few minutes.

I have 24 P5 panels and a power monitor connected to the plug feeding the whole mess: panels, fans, power supplies etc. I then used the control panel to turn the matrix on at various levels and colors.

It is a bit cloudy today but I was surprised, that at 70% or lower the whole panel with a solid color started, to get too dim for me. At anything below 50% the color could barely be seen so I stopped there.

I don't know what to make of this  I thought I ran a test at 30% with my sequences and they looked fine but don't remember for sure.  I ran as you know at 100%. Anyway for what it is worth.

Here are the rough results all in watts.    (total watts)       /    (total watts) / divided by 24

Idle consumption: 38 watts.

Brightness     100 %                 70 %           50 %              

Blue                308/12.8           72/3          44/1.8

Red                 362 /15             78/3.2       45/1.8

Green             394/ 16.4          82/3.4         46/1.9

White             1084 /45.1         154 /6.4        58/2.4

With 48 panels full on white steady you might be pushing 2 KW. 

 

[rick gurnee]

Wow, at first glance those numbers don't make a lot of sense, but I need to look at them more carefully.  You got your panels from yourpixelstore.com.  I looked on his website but couldn't find any power numbers, so I'm using wired watts number of 6.19 amps per panel at 100%.  

6.19 amps * 5 v = 30.95 watts   but you show 45.1 (a lot more)

30.95 * 70% = 21.67 watts    but you show 6.4 ( a lot less)

30.95 * 50% = 15.475 watts    but you show 2.4 ( a lot less)

and while your red + blue + green are close to the white value at 100% while the values for 75% and 50% are a lot more, but still not as high as I calculated.

You might try running tests at 95%, 90%, 85% and 80% to see where they match what I calculated.

My calculation for 48 panels is 1.44 KW.  I might have to do some testing when I get my panels to see what they really draw at different percentages.

I assume you were taking your measurements on the input side of the power supplies.

Sorry, I grew up in Michigan, so I'll have to go with the Lions.  I have it recorded and will watch it later tonight.

[stevehoyt]

I may have confused you. I am surprised at some of them too…so take them with a grain of salt.

no I was not measuring the power supply. I was measuring the total power going into the box at the 110 volt plug. I thought it might just be another interesting data point. 

1 hour ago, stevehoyt said:

I have 24 P5 panels and a power monitor connected to the plug feeding the whole mess: panels, fans, power supplies etc. I then used the control panel to turn the matrix on at various levels and colors.

If you think it might be of value I could do some more tests   I doubt it would help you in your efforts.

fyi another data point.. I have been watching the consumption while the game is on, which it looks like we are getting creamed. Full brightness running 1080 p video and is averaging between 100 and 150 watts total. very interesting to watch when there is a lot of white it jumps to 350 watts. 
 

just thought it would be a fun fact

 

[rick gurnee]

Yes, that was where I thought you were measuring from.   I didn't ask my question clearly.  Your numbers during the game sound reasonable.  Did they go up when the 49ers came back to win it? lol.

What bothers me is that the 100% numbers are so out of line with either my theoretical calculation or your 70% and 50% numbers.

[TheDucks]

3 hours ago, rick gurnee said:

Make it 5.1, the panel range is 4.75 to 5.25

Quote

When I build my display, I'll measure each of the power supplies at the source and at the fuse box and adjust accordingly.  I guess I would want the voltage on the panel side of the fuse to be exactly at 5.0 volts. 

I certainly can tie all of the grounds together.  Can you explain why this should be done?

Better noise immunity. All DI lines reference gnd.

I did power and distribution on a prototype of a LanStar shelf. My first cut getting power up from the base and doing tests with different card slots populated opened my eyes. Some lines were 30A, others were as low as 5 (there were 4 feed points to the 5V bus on the backplane). I built the second harness (bulkier), but all 5V and Ground feed sets were very close in length and the current shared very close

[stevehoyt]

I will run a few more tests and see if I get any meaningful info. Maybe I setup or read something wrong

 

Edited January 29 by stevehoyt

[rick gurnee]

I think I just made my life much simpler.  Based on the cost of the power supplies and the cost of the fuse boxes, I am going to go with 8 power supplies each powering 6 panels and not using fuse boxes at all.  If I looked at your pictures correctly, Steve, this is what you have: 4 power supplies each feeding three wires each of which feed two panels. 

If I place my power supplies stratigically I should be able to use the 14/18 gauge wires the wired watts sends with the panels.  And I will not be overloading the power supplies even if the panels use more than the 6 amps that they say.

[k6ccc]

2 hours ago, rick gurnee said:

I am going to go with 8 power supplies each powering 6 panels and not using fuse boxes at all.

If you are not going to use fuse distro boxes, I would recommend putting inline fuses in each panel (or pairs).  Having a 70 amp power supply with no fuses to the loads sounds like a good way to damage something if there is a fault.

 

[rick gurnee]

Certainly nobody can argue that inlind fuses are not a good idea and I had planned on adding them. However, I wonder if the power supply isn't suppose to protect this, also.  I noticed that none of the other controller/power supplies that I bought from LOR and Holiday Coro have additional inline fuses.  Also, why am I paying 50% more for the Meanwell power supply than the generic.

I'm not trying to be arguementative.  I really don't know the answer to these questions.  Granted, having a fault and blowing a string of 50 pixels is a little different than blowing a pair of P5 panels, but is cost the only reason why the other controllers don't have fuses?

[TheDucks]

Yes! The supply should current limit, but at 70++ Amps. Meanwhile the wire is glowing red hot 😲.

Look at the chart for the type of conductors being used: https://www.powerstream.com/wire-fusing-currents.htm Fused is where the wire MELTS OPEN

This is why we fuse at the SUPPLY end for the conductor used. (LOR controllers have 4/5A fuses for each port, but that does not protect if PI is used further down. (this is also WHY you break the PLUS line at the PI point. 1)separates the feeds fusing. 2)Keeps the fuses safe when the supplies don't (or can't) all power up evenly.

You might want to buy a slightly even more expensive Meanwell. Get the version that is power factor corrected.

Regular (and all Low Cost) supplies have a very Capacitive Reactive line input. ('I" leading). 8 of those is not going to look (electrically) friendly to the Utility equipment.

OMG that, if you just switch them on at the same time. (whatever you do, you will need to Automatically stagger them powering up or you chance a breaker trip on a utility power blink)

I would run that much on a 240V branch (most supplies can run on 240. check the nameplate 100-250 is an Auto switchover. 120/240 indicates a switch or jumper).  240 operation means you can use almost twice as many on the same sized cord. DO change the extension cord ends from NEMA 5-15 to 6-15 to prevent accidental 120V stuff being plugged in.

I would NOT recommend THIS cord https://www.amazon.com/Parkworld-885729-Extension-Female-Adapter/dp/B07K2R53HM/ref=asc_df_B07K2R53HM&mcid=1384d805823e37fba2c571ad2ad2110e?tag=bngsmtphsnus-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=80814222102121&hvnetw=s&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4584413749568440&psc=1 as the outlet is rated for higher than the plug (leading to possible overloading the plug) (the wire used is fine)

I am a nit picker about Electrical fire safety practices, so sue me.

[rick gurnee]

OK, I am getting overwhelmed.  I think I need to explain better what I am planning on doing.  I'm not sure where the 70 amp number came from, but I will not be drawing anything close to 70 amps from any of my power supplies.

Please ignore everything I said previously about how I might wire this display.

I will have 48 P5 panels. According to wired watts these draw 6.19 amps at 100% white. 100% red draws less than 2.5 amps and green and blue draw less than that. I will never turn on 100% white, however, I plan to wire the display so that I don't have to worry about that.

48 panels at 100% white would draw 297 amps or 1486 watts at 5 volts. It would draw 12.4 amps at 120 volts.

I plan to have 8 300 watt power supplies. On the AC side, these will plug into at least 3 different 20 amp circuits even though the maximum current is 12 amps and usually much less.  On the AC side I will tie all of the neutral connections together.  I will tie two of the hot connections together.  Thus I will have four AC plugs coming out of my display.

Each of the power supplies will power 6 panels for a maximum of 37.14 amps or 185.7 watts at 5 volts. Normal usage will be significantly lower than this.

Wire watts supplies a power cord for every two panels. This power cord is 14 gauge and splits into two 18 gauge wires which plugs into the two panels. I will add a 14 gauge 15 amp fuse to this wire, if needed. If wired Watts feels that two panels can be powered by a 14 gauge wire, I am not going to argue with them. (although their calculator suggested 4 power supplies, which would probably work, but only if you never went all white.)

I don't understand why I would need to stagger powering them up. When they power up, the panels will be black and the draw will be next to nothing. (Steve measured 38 watts for 24 panels, so mine should be about 75 watts, less than an old light bulb.)

When I looked at Steve 6x4 setup that Yourpixelstore.com built for him, he had 4 power supplies and each supported 6 panels. I believe that three sets of power cords plugged directly into each power supply. I'm basically doubling everything that he did but each power supply will support the same number of panels as his does.

If there is something that I'm missing or that I stated incorrectly, please let me know.  

[k6ccc]

I'm on my phone in pre-op, so gonna make this short.  The 14AWG wire will catch fire if it shorts with a 60 or 70 amp supply driving it.  That's why you fuse the wires to the panels.

On initial power up, a power supply will have a startup surge.  That has nothing to do with the load connected.  With 8 supplies, it can be substantial.  Splitting that between several outlets will mitigate that ok.

 

[rick gurnee]

17 minutes ago, k6ccc said:

I'm on my phone in pre-op, so gonna make this short.  The 14AWG wire will catch fire if it shorts with a 60 or 70 amp supply driving it.  That's why you fuse the wires to the panels.

On initial power up, a power supply will have a startup surge.  That has nothing to do with the load connected.  With 8 supplies, it can be substantial.  Splitting that between several outlets will mitigate that ok.

 

I hope everything goes well.

[k6ccc]

14 minutes ago, rick gurnee said:

I hope everything goes well.

Me too.  Had a left total knee replacement last August.  Enjoyed it so much that today we're doing the right knee.

Ok, anyone who has had this knows I'm kidding about enjoying the first one...