P5 Panels

[rick gurnee]

I've decided to add an electric sign next year. At first I was going to build it out of bullet pixels but then I decided to look into P5/P10 panels. Unfortunately, most of the videos I found on the internet assumed I knew a lot more about panels than I do. I started off knowing absolutely nothing about panels, raspberry Pi, FPP or anything else in this area. Then I found the videos at panelsrus.co.uk and they have some very good beginning tutorials. But now I have a lot of questions. I think I have decided on P5 panels and I am going to go 3 high and 4 wide. This is larger than I really need but it will allow me to do some things other than just text. And I want to be able to control the output from the LOR sequences. The panelsrus videos show how to do it from Xlights and so I know it can be done, I'm just not sure if I understand how to do it. I couldn't find any videos of how people connected it to LOR.

Let's start with the basics. I probably will be buying from wiredwatts.com. They have a nice tool to help configure what I need. The first question I have is which controller to go with. I think I will need a Raspberry Pi 4B with a Pi Hat. But I don't know if the beaglebone is better or not. I think I'm going to stay away from the Colorlight card because I read that it requires a 1 gigabyte network speed and mine is only 100 meg. Does anyone have a suggestion?

I will then download FPP (Falcon Player) onto the Pi and configure the panels.

I need to build a waterproof enclosure for the back of the panels. I have some ideas, but doe anyone have any suggestions on how to build this enclosure.

The part I'm least confident in is connecting it to LOR. I'm pretty sure running it standalone won't be a problem but I really want to controller from the sequences. I have the following networks: 3 LOR networks and 1 DMX network. Can I just daisy chain it off the end of the DMX network?

I am running Version 5.6.8 of LOR, but I will be going to version 6 before I build the panels. I'm also running MIIP, but I don't think that should affect anything. How do I define it in the Preview. Is it simply a matrix with 96 strings and 256 nodes per string? It looks like it will require 144 universes. I've already got almost 100 universes defined on my DMX network, so I guess I could start at universe 101 through 244. How do I make sure LOR and FPP agree on the order of the pixels within each universe? When I watched them do it in Xlights it just seemed to do it by magic. I've never used Xlights, so maybe there was something I was missing.

It would be great if someone could point me to a video of someone who has set panels up in LOR.

 

Finally, as I said, I will probably buy from wiredwatts.com. Do you know if they run sales in the spring like a lot of other venders do. They claim their panels are 28% off right now, but I don't know if the price will get better during a sale.

[k6ccc]

19 minutes ago, rick gurnee said:

Let's start with the basics. I probably will be buying from wiredwatts.com. They have a nice tool to help configure what I need. The first question I have is which controller to go with. I think I will need a Raspberry Pi 4B with a Pi Hat. But I don't know if the beaglebone is better or not. I think I'm going to stay away from the Colorlight card because I read that it requires a 1 gigabyte network speed and mine is only 100 meg. Does anyone have a suggestion?

Yes, the Wired Watts panel builder this is pretty cool.  As far as what processor to use, there are essentially 3 options - from lowest to highest capabilities.  1)  RasPi with a hat.  2)  BeagleBone with a cape.  3)  RasPi driving a ColorLight card.  I have done all three at one point in time or another.  In my opinion, the ColorLight is such a pain to configure that I would avoid it unless needed.  Don't let the GigE connection scare you.  That is just from the RasPi to the ColorLight - a separate network from your LOR show computer to the RasPi.  The Pi-4 supports GigE, but you will need two connections.  Many of us use a USB to Ethernet adapter (there is a specific one to use).  When I did the one year with ColorLights, I was using Pi-3 (which does not support Gig with the on board Ethernet), so had to use the USB adapter for the ColorLight connection.  Currently I am using a PocketBeagle with a PocketScroller.  Works quite well.

26 minutes ago, rick gurnee said:

I will then download FPP (Falcon Player) onto the Pi and configure the panels.

FPP is easy to install.  Download a disk image file and use a disk image writing program to burn that to a uSD card.  Plug that into the BeagleBone or RasPi and power it up.  EVERYTHING in  FPP is configured with a web interface.  You do NOT need a keyboard, mouse, or monitor connected.  Doing so will only cause confusion.

28 minutes ago, rick gurnee said:

I need to build a waterproof enclosure for the back of the panels. I have some ideas, but doe anyone have any suggestions on how to build this enclosure.

The entire panels need weatherproofing.  Don't get the "outdoor" panels - they will be MASSIVELY bright.  Those are the ones used for roadside billboards that are easy to see in direct sunlight.  There are a bunch of YouTube videos.  I have a few bookmarked at home.

30 minutes ago, rick gurnee said:

The part I'm least confident in is connecting it to LOR. I'm pretty sure running it standalone won't be a problem but I really want to controller from the sequences. I have the following networks: 3 LOR networks and 1 DMX network. Can I just daisy chain it off the end of the DMX network?

The LOR part is pretty easy.  You connect to Ethernet port on your computer - NOT an RS-485 network.  I suggest a separate Ethernet network from your "house" network, and do not even think about using WiFi for the connection.

33 minutes ago, rick gurnee said:

I am running Version 5.6.8 of LOR, but I will be going to version 6 before I build the panels. I'm also running MIIP, but I don't think that should affect anything. How do I define it in the Preview. Is it simply a matrix with 96 strings and 256 nodes per string? It looks like it will require 144 universes. I've already got almost 100 universes defined on my DMX network, so I guess I could start at universe 101 through 244. How do I make sure LOR and FPP agree on the order of the pixels within each universe?

Maybe confused.  You said you currently have 100 universes on your existing DMX, so I gather this is E1.31 over Ethernet - NOT an RS-485 network.  Assuming your existing DMX is E1.31, then is is just plain Ethernet.  You can use standard network switches, or if your existing E1.31 controllers have a built in switch, then you can daisy chain off that (I do that for my pixel tree using a Falcon F16v3 and then the second Ethernet port goes to the BeagleBone for my P10 matrix.

In  LOR, it's just a simple horizontal matrix with 96 strings of 256 pixels.  Then in Network Preferences (or the Network tab in S6), you define what IP to use for the universes you assign.  In my case, my P10 is Universes 101 - 136 and my P5 is Universes 201 - 272.  My other E1.31 stuff is all below 100.

I can post a screen capture or two later.  BTW, I am running S6 and MIIP.

 

[rick gurnee]

Thanks for the quick reply.  Yes, my 100 universes or on plain ethernet network.  I have 4 HolidayCoro AlphaPix controllers that are daisy chained from the computer's ethernet port The last one is about 20 ft from where I want to put the panel.  So I can just run another Cat5 cable from the last Alphapix to the new panel.  I don't have any other wired "house" network.  I do have 3 RS-485 for my LOR controllers, but they are not part of this discussion.

ok, I will look at the indoor panels.  I did watch one video of somebody who showed what he used to protect the indoor panels, but he said it didn't work very well and would do something different if he were to do it over again.  I really didn't pay attention, because I was planning on using outdoor panels.  I'll have to research this some more.

I'm glad to hear that I was wrong about the 1 gig speed, but the ColorLight is probably overkill for what I want anyway.  

I will take your word that the LOR part is easy.  I have a lot of questions in that area, but I think after I get the hardware and configure it and start trying thing, it will fall into place.

Now, I guess I'll start researching waterproofing.  Or I could get the outdoor ones and run everything at 50%.

[k6ccc]

20 minutes ago, rick gurnee said:

Thanks for the quick reply.  Yes, my 100 universes or on plain ethernet network.  I have 4 HolidayCoro AlphaPix controllers that are daisy chained from the computer's ethernet port The last one is about 20 ft from where I want to put the panel.  So I can just run another Cat5 cable from the last Alphapix to the new panel. 

You might want to run a separate cable from a switch rather than daisy chained after the Alphapix controllers.  144 universes is a pretty large amount of data, and frankly I don't really know how good the network switching is in the Alphapix (especially going through four of them).  So I would go computer --> network switch -->  first Alphapix.  Then also from another port on the switch to the P5 matrix.

24 minutes ago, rick gurnee said:

Or I could get the outdoor ones and run everything at 50%.

More like 5% (or less)

25 minutes ago, rick gurnee said:

I'm glad to hear that I was wrong about the 1 gig speed, but the ColorLight is probably overkill for what I want anyway.  

I would at least try it with a BeagleBone first.  For that many panels, I would likely not recommend using a RasPi and hat.

26 minutes ago, rick gurnee said:

I will take your word that the LOR part is easy. 

Here's some screen captures of my 3W x 2H P5 matrix.  This is in S6, but you said you were going to move to S6.  If your browser does not embed the images, there is a link directly to each one.

Here's the Prop Definition (same in S5 and S6).  Build the prop as a horizontal matrix with the number of strings and pixels in each row (the red oval).  Set starting location to which ever corner you like, but you MUST make it the same in FPP (the green oval).  I use the Top Left on both of may panels.  Lastly, set it to DMX and the starting Universe (the blue oval).  Leave Max channel at 512 (the blue arrow).

http://newburghlights.org/images/P5_matrix_setup-1.png

Next on the Networks selection on the S6 Control Panel (new in S6), select add.  After you are done, it will look similar to this.  See the next screen capture.

http://newburghlights.org/images/P5_matrix_setup-2.png

After selecting add on the screen above, you will get this screen.  Enter a name for this device (the red oval).  Makes it far easier to keep track of.  Then the start and end universes (the green oval).  Lastly the IP address of the FPP installation (the yellow oval).  Leave the Port as standard (the orange arrow).

http://newburghlights.org/images/P5_matrix_setup-3.png

Done

 

[rick gurnee]

Thanks Jim,

I will pick up a network switch.  Next year I might even move one of the AlphaPix to a separate network off of the switch.  It was doing some strange freezes that I fixed by putting it at the end of the daisy chain, but separating it out might be better.

I will plan on getting the pocket beagle with the pocket scroller.  I see where FPP has a different download for beagle from Pi.  It should be pretty straight forward. 

[stevehoyt]

My 2 cents.... @k6ccc is by far the expert and helped me get my P5 panels going this year.

I went with a 4 x 6 P5 panel. The cost  was amazingly low for what you get. I also built a 65 x 40 1 inch pixel matrix that looks crappy compared to the P5 for about the same cost. Pushing in 2600 pixels was not fun.  Mine is  192 x 256 or 49152 pixels. Picture Quality amazing.

I went with a prebuilt outdoor one, using the color bright card and a raspberry Pi running FPP. That part was a cost/time issue for me. I did not want to get into building one, sourcing a box, and wiring.  Their prebuilt one was all tested, waterproof etc. Very good quality. It was not that hard to setup. My only issue was that they had installed the wrong version of firmware in the card. It took me a whole week to troubleshoot the issue. After that I haven't touched a thing now for 6 weeks.

For me, it is not too bright. I am running it 100% and it looks fabulous. That part, I expect, all depends on your personal setup. Mine may not be typical, as I am far away from the street. As mentioned you can always dim it down.

My main issue is be prepared for extremely long rendering times when writing sequences and get the fastest computer setup you can afford. The P5 pixel matrix really can slow things down.

All that said it was my best purchase yet, and people rave at the quality and all the fun pics I have.

Would do it again in a heartbeat.

The next step is to see if it might make a good TV for outdoors this summer. I need to figure out which video sending box to use with it. 

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by stevehoyt

[rick gurnee]

Steve, thanks for the advice.  A couple of questions.  Where did you get the pre-built one. I see you got the outdoor panels.  Mine will be closer to the street than yours.  Any chance you have a video of it?  Yes, I see in FPP where I can adjust the brightness.  I've seen a couple of videos where people have broken a pixel or two when putting the indoor ones together.  The outdoor ones just look more robust.  I'd hate to get indoor ones and start losing pixels in a year or two.  Especially if the only reason to get them is because the outdoor ones are too bright, which can be lowered. 

I agree Jim is the expert.  He has helped me on several other issues.

[stevehoyt]

I have not had a chance to take any pictures yet. I will take some and post in the next week or so, now that the holiday season is coming to an end.

I got mine from https://yourpixelstore.com.

Brightness adjustment is easy. You do it by changing the pixel dimming curve in your preview for that prop only. 

Brightness has only been an issue for me when trying to display high quality photos of people. It is so bright they look a bit washed out. When I had the time I toned them down a bit in photo software.  I wish S6 had an option in the picture motion effect to dim them. Maybe the manual brightness slider in motion effects could have helped. I did not try it .

Brightness is not a problem as far the neighbors are concerned.  I use tons of gifs, svg files and motion effects.

I bought a couple of extra P5 panels with mine in case I had an issue. I figured they would all be from the same lot and have the same color characteristics, if I ever had to swap one out. Who knows if they would match if I had to buy a replacement a year later. 

 

[rick gurnee]

I've been looking at https://yourpixelstore.com/ this morning.  It appears they used to have kits, but all I can find is the full build.  I've emailed them to see if they still have kits.  Their enclosures look very good.  I had trouble with photos of people on a cosmic tree, also.  Didn't expect them to look too good, but, as you say they washed out badly.  I tried the brightness slider and it helped, but not enough.  I'm sure the P5 panels will be 1000% better.

If I go with the outdoor panels and it's too bright, I play with both the dimming curves and the FPP brightness and see which works better.

[stevehoyt]

@rick gurnee

I just posted a few pics of the setup. They are not excellent quality. I never seem to get good ones with my iPhone. but you will get the idea of how it looks. In real life it looks like what you might see in a Stadium...very nice.

here is the link

https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B145Uzl7VCGygS

[rick gurnee]

Jim, how do you waterproof the front of your indoor P5's.  All of the videos I've seen show people trying different covers and admitting they didn't work well.  I'm leaning toward going with outdoor P5's and turning down the intensity in either the LOR prop or FPP.

By the way, when I first started looking into this, I was thinking about a 2x2 panel.  Now I'm thinking maybe 4x6!  I've also downloaded xlights so I can understand what people are talking about in their videos.  I'll probably have some questions on how to set them up in LOR, but that will be after I get the hardware.

[k6ccc]

2 hours ago, rick gurnee said:

Jim, how do you waterproof the front of your indoor P5's.

Well so far, I haven't gotten around to it.  My P10 is tucked way up under my eves so it is protected from the rain.  We simply don't get wind during show season, so the overhang keeps them dry.  It is something on my ToDo list.  This is not really where I want the P10 matrix, but it is weather protected.  That also means that I don't have the P5 matrix deployed.  I REALLY want to get that resolved this year...

http://www.newburghlights.org/photos/P10_2018_mounting-1.jpg

[rick gurnee]

Steve, is there any chance you could take a picture of the back (inside).  I see where yourpixelstore.com uses brackets from SFL-design.com and I believe the brackets from wirewatts.com are much sturdier.  Do you have any concern about how strong the brackets are?  I'm still trying to find out if the yourpixelstore panels would work with the wirewatts brackets.

I am planning on building a 4x6 panel so I want to make sure the middle sections are secure.  the smaller 2x2 panels would not be an issue.

[stevehoyt]

If you mean me....I can take pictures if you like. It may be a week or 2. As you can see, it is currently up on my roof peak about 15 feet up.

We are having winds and rain so I doubt we will be able to get it down soon.

Have you done the calculation on building versus buying a  prebuilt and tested solution. 

Mine is very well built. For the few extra dollars it was an easy decision for me. 

 

[rick gurnee]

Thanks Steve, I agree the pre-built ones are reasonably priced, but I would enjoy building my own.  The few hundred dollars I would save would not be worth the many extra hours I would put into it, but as I said, I think I would enjoy it.  

I didn't realize you hadn't taken it down, yet.  I will probably make a decision before you can take a picture, but thanks anyway.

[stevehoyt]

No problem .  I can take them later if need be.

2 other random thoughts. I have a 4 x 6 panel. If you have the space I would go even bigger. Once on my roof it was not nearly as big as it seemed on the ground.  Don't get me wrong it looked great though.

My limiting factor on size was constrained by, I needed to keep it under 100 pounds, so that I could securely mount it on the roof and withstand the 60 MPH gusts we get here in the winter.

Also,  I know Jim has had issues with the Colorbright controller. The only problem I had, was they sent it with the wrong firmware. Once I figured that out I never had to do another thing.

I like the idea of a color bright card, as it makes the matrix compatible with any of their senders.

For a couple hundred dollars I can send TV/ Roku video to it. I plan on trying it in the backyard as an outdoor screen all year.

I am not sure how it will look. I know nothing about FPP or Xlights so maybe it would work with that too. 

Also check with Jim on getting the right driver, if you go with another solution. I saw another thread where he was working with Matt. Apparently S6 has increased the rate at which they send packets and it was dropping packets. Just an FYI.

 

[rick gurnee]

Thanks for all of the great information.  How things have changed for me in the last month.  I started out thinking I might make a 2x2 to display my fm radio station.  And like you I new nothing about FPP or xlights. After I saw what they could do, I decided to go to 4x3.  I now am thinking about 4x6 and you are suggesting going bigger!!!!

My setup is a little different than yours.  My screen is going to be on the front / side of my main display.  People normally, get out of their cars and stand on the opposite side of the street so they can see everything. (one advantage to living in Florida)  So they would be 20-30 ft away from it.  Much closer than yours.  However, I do have the space and could go 6x8 (it would only double the cost. lol).

I was planning on using a beaglebone black with a octoplus cape, but a pi with a colorbright card is also an option.  If I go 6x8 I will probably go with the colorbright.

Like you, I am plan on getting some extra panels.  But I was thinking with 4 extra panels I could make a 2x2 (my original size) as a standalone sign.  Then if I needed a spare I would take the sign apart and use them as spares.

I actually downloaded xlights and was able to get my LOR DMX network working on xlights.  So I now have a little knowledge of that and from the videos I've seen, FPP looks pretty straight forward.  I wasn't able to convert any LOR sequence to xlights, but for what I plan to do, that won't be necessay.

 

[stevehoyt]

One question. Why are you thinking you need xlights?

I am not the beaglebone expert, but the way I did it with FPP on a raspberry Pi and the color bright card,

You define your matrix using dmx in your preview.  

So if you already have a LOR DMX network you already have done that.

Give FPP an ip address.. Setup FPP to use a color bright card and the right universes.  Plug the FPP into the matrix via a gigabit ethernet connection. Connect your FPP to the e 1.31 network.

You point the AUX ?? network to the right IP address using the control panel.

Done

Edited January 13 by stevehoyt

[rick gurnee]

No I don't need xlights.  The main reason I downloaded it was because all of the videos that I watched used xlights.  So by learning the basics of xlights I was able to understand the videos better.  I see how they did things in xlights and then be able to translate that to how I would do it in LOR.  Now that I have xlights, I probably will use it to load FPP onto the Pi.  There are other ways to do it, but that will probably be easiest.

Also, if I make a 2x2 sign I probably will not connect it to my LOR DMX network.  I will create a simple sequence in xlights and download it to FPP and then schedule the FPP to play it nightly.  I see where LOR V6 now has the ability to create fseq files that can run in FPP, so that is another way I could do this.  I didn't install V6 until last week, so I didn't know about this.

Everything you said is exactly what I plan on doing.

[k6ccc]

Honest answer, a 2 x 2 is not really big enough for a TuneTo sign unless you put nothing but the radio frequency.  I have a 3W x 2H P5 matrix (192W x 64H pixels) and a 4W x 3 H P10 matrix (128W x 48H pixels).  They both display the same information, but because I have never built a weatherproof enclosure for the P5, I have never deployed the P5.  I normally display the artist, song title and TuneTo information as seen here hanging in my family room (if your browser does not embed the image, there is a direct link to it):

http://www.newburghlights.org/photos/Matrix_panels_hanging_close-up.jpg

I am planning on rebuilding the P10 so that it is 6W x 4H this year which will make both matrix displays 192W x 64H.  That will make sequencing a bit easier.  The planned location for the P5 will have people no further than about 25 feet away, and close enough they could touch it.  The P10 (if I move it as planned) will have people between 25 and about 100 feet away.