GFCI 's

[Max-Paul]

Dang, going to eat a little crow.

Missed the fact that the return wire from test button remained on the outside of the coil. Only the hot lead to test resistor was inside..

Hate it when I miss small details..

[Max-Paul]

Will say that running the wire to earth ground would be a better way of testing the GFCI cause this would insure that the earth ground was connected and in good working order. That drawing is still crap in my mind.

[plasmadrive]

Max-Paul,

Drawing a load to ground should indeed trip the GFI because there will be an imbalance between the hot and neutral.. however, that assumes that you have the GFI connected correctly. The GFI may not trip when you push the test button if it is not connect correctly, but then again the external may not trip it either.

As for the drawing.. whether you think it is crap or not, it is technically correct and a good illustration of how the internals are connected. I am curious, why do you believe it is "crap"? Am I missing something or do you just not like it?

[Steven]

Max-Paul wrote:

Will say that running the wire to earth ground would be a better way of testing the GFCI cause this would insure that the earth ground was connected and in good working order. That drawing is still crap in my mind.

When a GFCI failed, I took it apart to see how it worked. The test button was wired as shown in the above diagram. That diagram is not to show how a GFCI should be wired, but more to show how they are wired.

From things I have read elsewhere, the purpose of a GFCI is to provide protection against a ground fault in the cases where the equipment grounding conductor is not present.

To look at it another way, if ground is always present, for example an aluminum case electric drill with a 3-prong plug, then a GFCI is not needed, because a ground fault would trip the circuit breaker.

According to Mike Holt, an electrical code expert, the code allows, in cases where no ground exists in the outlet box, to "Replace the 2-wire receptacle with a GFCI-type receptacle and marked the receptacle with the words “No Equipment Ground.”" In this case, the "test" button still needs to work, even without a ground connection.

[Max-Paul]

Technically correct does not = best design. I think that Post #47 answers the question why I think it is crap design. What did I not say that needs clarification?

plasmadrive wrote:

Max-Paul,

Drawing a load to ground should indeed trip the GFI because there will be an imbalance between the hot and neutral.. however, that assumes that you have the GFI connected correctly.  The GFI may not trip when you push the test button if it is not connect correctly, but then again the external may not trip it either. 

As for the drawing.. whether you think it is crap or not, it is technically correct and a good illustration of how the internals are connected.   I am curious, why do you believe it is "crap"?  Am I missing something or do you just not like it? 

NOTE: Because some duplicate posts were removed the reference to post 47 is no longer valid. I the poster will let us know what post this references we will adjust it. LORDAN.

[Max-Paul]

Steven, do you really believe what you wrote? Ground Fault means that there is current flowing into ground, NOT NEUTRAL. So, I would bet that there are more plastic bodied drills out there than metal case drills. Steven where in my post till now have I typed your name into my post? So, dont take it personal when I said that the design is crap. Look at what you quoted of my post. If the push button was wired on one side to Ground (NOT NEUTRAL) that it would also test that the ground wire is in good order.

Steven wrote:

Max-Paul wrote:

Will say that running the wire to earth ground would be a better way of testing the GFCI cause this would insure that the earth ground was connected and in good working order. That drawing is still crap in my mind.

When a GFCI failed, I took it apart to see how it worked. The test button was wired as shown in the above diagram. That diagram is not to show how a GFCI should be wired, but more to show how they are wired.

From things I have read elsewhere, the purpose of a GFCI is to provide protection against a ground fault in the cases where the equipment grounding conductor is not present.

To look at it another way, if ground is always present, for example an aluminum case electric drill with a 3-prong plug, then a GFCI is not needed, because a ground fault would trip the circuit breaker.

According to Mike Holt, an electrical code expert, the code allows, in cases where no ground exists in the outlet box, to "Replace the 2-wire receptacle with a GFCI-type receptacle and marked the receptacle with the words “No Equipment Ground.”" In this case, the "test" button still needs to work, even without a ground connection.

[plasmadrive]

You mean you think the design is crap rather then the actual drawing. Ok. But why? They are meant to be able to work without a ground, so what would you do different ? Keeping in mind they have to work without an available ground. How would you design it?

I have to say I would love a GFI that does fail all the tme but still works as intended!

[Max-Paul]

thanks Jeff for explaining what I was saying about Capacitive coupling. And I think Plasmadrive is addressing me.

To answer your question. I have already explained how the design should be changed. But to answer your new question about installing a GFCI on a circuit that does not have a ground. First note that the number of houses without a ground is shrinking all of the time. I think all houses built after what was it mid 70s, and all refurbs require romax with ground wire. Ok make it so that it test for a ground wire as I have described above. With a label instructing the installer to tie the neutral and ground together on the back of the GFCI in case there is no ground wire. The best of two worlds. And in cases like these still need the label you described earlier.
Now, whos GFCI is better tested? Please tell me you can see the benefit of checking the Ground circuit if it is in place. And that tying the ground wire to the neutral wire will still allow the GFCI to work on a non-grounded outlet.

[Steven]

Max-Paul wrote:

And that tying the ground wire to the neutral wire will still allow the GFCI to work on a non-grounded outlet.

But it is prohibited by section 250.6 of the NEC.

Because a broken neutral connection would put hazardous voltage on the ground pin when an appliance was plugged in. This fault would not be detected by the GFCI.

[plasmadrive]

Jeff I was asking Max-Paul. Sorry

[Max-Paul]

Ok, can see that angle Steven. Well hell!! make a GFCI for non-grounded houses. And one for houses that have a ground in the romex. Wait, that would kill the benefit of those external testers. And that would put some Mexicans out of work making those testers.

[KStatefan]

Max-Paul wrote:

Oh come on guys. Who drew up that picture does not know his rear from a hole in the ground. First look where have tapped into the hot and neutral. it is before the current sensing coil. Second, lets say that they tapped in down stream of the current sensing coil. We would have current flowing out on the hot and returning on the neutral. Duh come on that is just what a circuit is supposed to do. And the current out and back through the coil would nullify and no current would be produced into the coil and then into the electronics. Thus it would not trip. Now if they had tapped into the hot and ground. Then we would have current flowing out through the coil and no current coming back to null the hot current. Now we will produce a voltage in the current sensing coil and up to the electronics and then the shunt would open.

Come on you so called experts. I can out think you guys with an arm tied behind my back. So, please if you want help, I gladly will help. But some of you all need to sit back and listen and learn. You do not really know what you think you know..

I am not bullying. But trying to teach a few of you who really have no idea that you have no idea.. And anyone who feels threated or bullied, send me a PM and we will hash it out.

KStatefan wrote:

dgrant wrote:

Either way, both the return side load(white wire) and the ground wire (green wire), both connect together in the fuse/C-B box on the house for US installations at least in all the homes that I've seen.

Yes. The equipment ground and the grounded conductor are bonded at the first disconnect. Normally the panel but sometimes a disconnect at the meter. All the GFCI is doing it looking to see if almost all the current is returning on the grounded conductor.

I knew I should not have posted on this thread. I will not make that mistake again. Thought it would be helpful when I posted the diagram of how GFCI are made.

[Guest Don Gillespie]

KStatefan wrote:

I knew I should not have posted on this thread. I will not make that mistake again. Thought it would be helpful when I posted the diagram of how GFCI are made.

Well just because I am on holididays doesn'tmean I don't read the forums, by doing a search of GFI plugs in the search bar the newbies would have come accross a thread from last year that I started which basically gave the same info as this thread, so as not to make the same mistake again Kstatefan try doing a search and then we won't have to read your post about not posting, newbies are looking for answers and we all need to stay positive on these forums, for all the others that again took their time to re-answer the same questions again thank you, what would we do without the older wiser vets on here.

[KStatefan]

Don Gillespie wrote:

KStatefan wrote:

I knew I should not have posted on this thread. I will not make that mistake again. Thought it would be helpful when I posted the diagram of how GFCI are made.

Well just because I am on holididays doesn'tmean I don't read the forums, by doing a search of GFI plugs in the search bar the newbies would have come accross a thread from last year that I started which basically gave the same info as this thread, so as not to make the same mistake again Kstatefan try doing a search and then we won't have to read your post about not posting, newbies are looking for answers and we all need to stay positive on these forums, for all the others that again took their time to re-answer the same questions again thank you, what would we do without the older wiser vets on here.

So you are telling me that I am not allowed to reply to a thread without doing a search to see if the question was answered before?

[SteveMaris]

KStatefan wrote:

Max-Paul wrote:

Oh come on guys. Who drew up that picture does not know his rear from a hole in the ground. First look where have tapped into the hot and neutral. it is before the current sensing coil. Second, lets say that they tapped in down stream of the current sensing coil. We would have current flowing out on the hot and returning on the neutral. Duh come on that is just what a circuit is supposed to do. And the current out and back through the coil would nullify and no current would be produced into the coil and then into the electronics. Thus it would not trip. Now if they had tapped into the hot and ground. Then we would have current flowing out through the coil and no current coming back to null the hot current. Now we will produce a voltage in the current sensing coil and up to the electronics and then the shunt would open.

Come on you so called experts. I can out think you guys with an arm tied behind my back. So, please if you want help, I gladly will help. But some of you all need to sit back and listen and learn. You do not really know what you think you know..

I am not bullying. But trying to teach a few of you who really have no idea that you have no idea.. And anyone who feels threated or bullied, send me a PM and we will hash it out.

KStatefan wrote:

dgrant wrote:

Either way, both the return side load(white wire) and the ground wire (green wire), both connect together in the fuse/C-B box on the house for US installations at least in all the homes that I've seen.

Yes.  The equipment ground and the grounded conductor are bonded at the first disconnect. Normally the panel but sometimes a disconnect at the meter.  All the GFCI is doing it looking to see if almost all the current is returning on the grounded conductor.

I knew I should not have posted on this thread.  I will not make that mistake again.  Thought it would be helpful when I posted the diagram of how GFCI are made.

I found it helpful. I like pictures. I am not the brightest bulb in the light fixture. I am sometimes amazed at the brains in this place. :cool:

[Guest Don Gillespie]

KStatefan wrote:

Don Gillespie wrote:

KStatefan wrote:

I knew I should not have posted on this thread. I will not make that mistake again. Thought it would be helpful when I posted the diagram of how GFCI are made.

Well just because I am on holididays doesn'tmean I don't read the forums, by doing a search of GFI plugs in the search bar the newbies would have come accross a thread from last year that I started which basically gave the same info as this thread, so as not to make the same mistake again Kstatefan try doing a search and then we won't have to read your post about not posting, newbies are looking for answers and we all need to stay positive on these forums, for all the others that again took their time to re-answer the same questions again thank you, what would we do without the older wiser vets on here.

So you are telling me that I am not allowed to reply to a thread without doing a search to see if the question was answered before?

nope! read my post again I am saying be positive when you post

[dgrant]

My understanding of forums such as this are that WE are here to learn and assist each other in our similar interests. WE are not supposed to be here to put others down and generally tell people they don't know anything.

I'm a very long time poster on a Corvette forum as one of my hobby interests are those cars, which I have two of them at this time. I'm also a Technical Contributor in there thanks to the knowledge level that I have concerning them. My being in that forum is there to help others who are asking questions and many times, its newbies. Yes, we too suggest the use of the "search" function which in this forum, I used with not so great results...therefore my newbie questions.

In a "Newbie" thread listing, those of you with all the experience, knowledge and respect in this hobby, need to be understanding and willing to understand our "newbie" questions and point us in the correct directions. I appreciate someone clarifying information and giving me facts but I am not interested in effectively being called a fool. In every forum, there are good people and not so good people. I may not have the same knowledge level of someone else in a particular area but then again, I might have a considerable amount of expertise in another area. You can trust me on this one, I've seen and worked on things most people cannot fathom and these are highly technical and super complex systems way beyond someone's definition of capacitors.

This is my first year and I'm jumping into this hobby in a large way and I appreciate the positive comments and the learning opportunities. As I mature in here from my own experiences, I'll be able to start assisting people as most of you do now.

[KStatefan]

Jeff Millard wrote:

KStatefan wrote:

I knew I should not have posted on this thread. I will not make that mistake again.

Wait, you posted in this thread again... does that mean you did, in fact, "make that mistake again?"

I'm so confused?!? :?

Jeff

You are not confused.

What would you expect from someone that "does not know his rear from a hole in the ground"

[Guest Don Gillespie]

KStatefan wrote:

What would you expect from someone that "does not know his rear from a hole in the ground"

its posts like this that are not needed, if you do not want to participate then don't name calling is for two year olds, looks like you keep making the same mistake over and over and over.

[Guest Don Gillespie]

dgrant wrote:

My understanding of forums such as this are that WE are here to learn and assist each other in our similar interests. WE are not supposed to be here to put others down and generally tell people they don't know anything.

I'm a very long time poster on a Corvette forum as one of my hobby interests are those cars, which I have two of them at this time. I'm also a Technical Contributor in there thanks to the knowledge level that I have concerning them. My being in that forum is there to help others who are asking questions and many times, its newbies. Yes, we too suggest the use of the "search" function which in this forum, I used with not so great results...therefore my newbie questions.

In a "Newbie" thread listing, those of you with all the experience, knowledge and respect in this hobby, need to be understanding and willing to understand our "newbie" questions and point us in the correct directions. I appreciate someone clarifying information and giving me facts but I am not interested in effectively being called a fool. In every forum, there are good people and not so good people. I may not have the same knowledge level of someone else in a particular area but then again, I might have a considerable amount of expertise in another area. You can trust me on this one, I've seen and worked on things most people cannot fathom and these are highly technical and super complex systems way beyond someone's definition of capacitors.

This is my first year and I'm jumping into this hobby in a large way and I appreciate the positive comments and the learning opportunities. As I mature in here from my own experiences, I'll be able to start assisting people as most of you do now.

I don't recall anyone calling you a fool try not to be so hard on yourself