GFCI 's

[dgrant]

Here is the reference I used. Not saying its correct and as I posted, I always thought it was different than stated.
http://home.howstuffworks.com/question117.htm

I did not read the entire article just to clarify before I get hung out to dry.

[Max-Paul]

dgrant,
I am trying to take your knowledge past the GFCI. What do you know about capasitors? Read about what it takes to make a cap. And what does a cap do?

I know, a lot of you none electronics guys ask, why do I need to know electronics? I just need to know the program and how to connect lights to the controller. Sorry gents, the world is not perfect and shite happens. Knowledge is what you need to have to trouble shoot and repair or correct the problem.

This discussion is for those who have had problems and those of you who will have problems. What I am offering up is for free. Many have paid for this knowledge. If anyone has a problem with the way I am presenting this knowledge. Take a leap out of this thread. I am not going to offer up any more knowledge without some reading. Read how caps work then come back and I will give you more info how this all works together.

How many understand why factors use fluorescent lamps. There is a reason and it saves them money to use fluorescent tube lamps. My FIL pointed this out to me many years ago. I knew about L&C tank circuits producing a tuned circuit at radio frequencies. but didnt think of it in 60Hz power circuits and how it would effect the power curve.

[dgrant]

Actually I know quite a bit about electronics and capacitors. What I've never seen is a schematic of a GFCI plug. Once I see that, I'll know how it works rather than having to rely on someone else's description. Now I've set down and designed a circuit for something long ago otherwise I have had to troubleshoot and repair lots of things from simple to complex. I doubt my knowledge of component level comes anywhere close to yours and this is not a contest. Back on capacitors, Mf, Pf and etc..the amount of voltage they'll store and how fast they will release it and case dependant for different applications whether its c/b mount or wired in. Molded, can types, electrolytic and so on...many, many types. Type, rating and voltage are all dependant on the usage.

[SteveMaris]

Dr. Jones wrote:

james campbell wrote:

since we are on the subject,I had trouble from My mini tree last year. i was thinking of using wrap around pipe insulation to get the metal frames off the ground,will this work?

I have seen mentioned before of people using liquid electrical tape or even wood blocks to insulate the frames

I had a wire Frame santa giving me problems one night with rain. I did exactly this (2 little wood blocks) and it worked.

[KStatefan]

PipefitterDan wrote:

Max-Paul, for a little clarification when you say "coming back via ground" do you mean through the ground wire or by any means to the ground. Such as through my hand, up my arm, down my side and out my foot. Some people could be confused by your comment.

A GFCI does not monitor the equipment ground conductor. I looks at the current flow difference between the ungrounded conductor (hot) and the grounded conductor (common).

[dgrant]

Either way, both the return side load(white wire) and the ground wire (green wire), both connect together in the fuse/C-B box on the house for US installations at least in all the homes that I've seen.

[KStatefan]

dgrant wrote:

Either way, both the return side load(white wire) and the ground wire (green wire), both connect together in the fuse/C-B box on the house for US installations at least in all the homes that I've seen.

Yes. The equipment ground and the grounded conductor are bonded at the first disconnect. Normally the panel but sometimes a disconnect at the meter. All the GFCI is doing it looking to see if almost all the current is returning on the grounded conductor.

[DSE]

Got it

[plasmadrive]

Max-Paul,

I am not sure capacitance really has a lot of bearing on this discussion. Even if you have .01uf that would still only be about .4mA of leakage current. But to be honest, I have never actually measured the capacitance of a wet wire circuit so I am just throwing what I think is a higher then reasonable number out there. (I could be wrong. It has happened).
Keeping in mind that the only leakage current that would in any way aid in tripping the GFCI quicker would be the capacitance to ground from L1. The Xc from L1 to Neut is not relevant because it would not cause an imbalance.

Anyway, there is enough info already on this thread about the imbalance being the cause of the GFCI tripping so I will end with my 1.024085 cents worth. (c:

[TitusCarnathan]

even though the grounding counductor and grounded conductor bonded together in your Main Service if you send power in the grounding slot on your receptical it will trip the gfci which is how the test button works as others in this post has said it monitors the inbalance between the hot and neutral conductor

grounding (green wire earth gound)

grounded (normally white wire, neutral ,common ,return)

source: I am an electrician

simply put I can take a light string (unsealed set) lay it on the ground and trip the gfci which has happend normally you will not leak enough power to trip it for me it always seems to be 7 (kind of like green acres rule where you cant plug a 6 with a 2)

sets that is why I switched to cdi's led strings Which fixed the problem in no time and stoped me from cursing the guy that made the gfci

any metal item wet ground or even wood if it is wet enough will conduct electricity I am currently working on a guide on solutions to fix this issue other than ripping the gfci out which I strongly do not recommend someone doing

[TitusCarnathan]

for testing the grounding is used when using an external tester

[TitusCarnathan]

one more thing that could pop a gfci is highly unlikely but can be done take the hot from the gfci and connect it to a device light etc... the return goes somewhere else like a regular receptical that is not connected to the gfci down stream since the gfci will not see the balance of current between the two conductors you will hear the wonder full pop

[james campbell]

SteveMaris wrote:

Dr. Jones wrote:

james campbell wrote:

since we are on the subject,I had trouble from My mini tree last year. i was thinking of using wrap around pipe insulation to get the metal frames off the ground,will this work?

I have seen mentioned before of people using liquid electrical tape or even wood blocks to insulate the frames

I had a wire Frame santa giving me problems one night with rain. I did exactly this (2 little wood blocks) and it worked.

I am going to try that thanks

[plasmadrive]

T110431,
"even though the grounding counductor and grounded conductor bonded together in your Main Service if you send power in the grounding slot on your receptical it will trip the gfci which is how the test button works as others in this post has said it monitors the inbalance between the hot and neutral conductor

Ah.. actually not. The test button doesn't not run power thru ground. I shunts it prior to one side of the sensor thereby creating an imbalance as shown in the drawing by KStatefan.

Also, I know what you meant by "if you send power in the grounding slot on your receptical it will trip the gfci" but technically unless that power came from the sensed leg of the GFCI that won't do it either.

[TitusCarnathan]

when I wrote it I was thinking of the gfci receptical testers that you plug in and the grounding slot is not sensed and I have triped gfcis by sending power to it and I have tried to test gfci's with out a ground and it does not pop I have done this as a bs experiment one time

[TitusCarnathan]

yes a gfci will trip w/o a grounding couductor but not with an external tester since they rely on the recepticals gound

[plasmadrive]

I got ya.. I have never actually used an external tester on a GFI.. Not a bad idea though..

[TitusCarnathan]

eg tester button is being pressed and the hot and the ground are showing resistance but stills shows it sends power to the ground in the same receptical to trip it




Attached files

[Max-Paul]

Come on guys, lets not confuse ground and neutral. They are still two different things once you get out of the C.B. box and into the house / yard. Two different paths. Neutral is the intended path for the current to return back to the C.B. box. Ground is a safety path or the wrong path if it is going through your body. So, a GFCI is to monitor and note if more current is going out on the hot wire than what is returning on the NEUTRAL wire.

Now for those of you who do not fully understand what I meant by the capacitive coupling statement. Set back and be prepared to be awed. And I see one other is a electronics guy so you should pick up on this. A Capacitor is two elements, usually called plates. A very simple visual is one that a guy built to make a Tesla coil (ball with static lighting on top). He took a piece of glass that was about 12" square. Then took some aluminum foil about 8" square and centered a sheet of foil on both sides of the glass, and attached wires. Ta Da, a capacitor. Now our electronics guy made a statement about storing energy. That is partially true of Electrolytic Caps. What about disc caps? And what do disc caps do? They block D.C. current and act as a resistor to A.C. current. Well there you go, we are working with A.C. And you might ask, but where are the two plates. Well my friends, what is the wire and the metal frame of the tomato cage? Hundreds of little plates that when in parallel add up to one small plate. Now multiply that by the number of mini trees you have. Each one leaking some A.C. current to ground. Thus if you put your trees up on wooden blocks or any other insulating material you break the plate to ground circuit path. And I bet if you took a volt meter out to the mini tree after you get it off of the ground and drove a metal stake into the ground and put the meter lead on the metal stake and a bare metal of the tomato cage you would see some voltage. And you would say "how can that be?" "I am not touching any electrical wires". It would be because of capacitive coupling. Anyone ever work on their house wiring? Ever open the circuit breaker and then check with a volt meter to see if the wires to an outlet (not controlled by a switch) actually was dead. Notice a couple of volts, but not the full 110 volts. Same thing, some call it noise but it is capacitive coupling. Not inductive, that would only be if you have some wires coiled around others.

So, that gents is the reason that if you have any metal display items with lights on them and your GFCI is tripping. there is a chance you can correct the problem by just lifting the item off of the ground and use wooden (my last choice unless painted, wood does get wet and conduct) or PVC pipe driven into the ground and metal item tied to the pipe.

Does that now answer your question as to how capacitive coupling can be your problem?

BTW the reason the fluorescent lights are used in factories is this. In factories there are a lot of inductive motors that cause the voltage and current phases to shift. When shifted and not in perfect phase it takes more current to the the same job as when the two are in phase. I cant remember this right so go with it. Lets say the current lags in a inductive circuit. And yes fluorescent lights are more capacitive. And in a capacitive circuit current leads voltage. So, you use fluorescent lights to offset the inductive load that the motors are producing. Trying to get a balanced and resistive load so you get the most out of each kilo watt. Also factories will be fined if their power factor falls to far below a factor of 1.

Now your as smart as me about this stuff. Just joking about myself, dont take that seriously..

Now the above is to help some of you newbies. I will argue the points above. Take it for what it cost you and use or discard as you like...

[Max-Paul]

Oh come on guys. Who drew up that picture does not know his rear from a hole in the ground. First look where have tapped into the hot and neutral. it is before the current sensing coil. Second, lets say that they tapped in down stream of the current sensing coil. We would have current flowing out on the hot and returning on the neutral. Duh come on that is just what a circuit is supposed to do. And the current out and back through the coil would nullify and no current would be produced into the coil and then into the electronics. Thus it would not trip. Now if they had tapped into the hot and ground. Then we would have current flowing out through the coil and no current coming back to null the hot current. Now we will produce a voltage in the current sensing coil and up to the electronics and then the shunt would open.

Come on you so called experts. I can out think you guys with an arm tied behind my back. So, please if you want help, I gladly will help. But some of you all need to sit back and listen and learn. You do not really know what you think you know..

I am not bullying. But trying to teach a few of you who really have no idea that you have no idea.. And anyone who feels threated or bullied, send me a PM and we will hash it out.

KStatefan wrote:

dgrant wrote:

Either way, both the return side load(white wire) and the ground wire (green wire), both connect together in the fuse/C-B box on the house for US installations at least in all the homes that I've seen.

Yes. The equipment ground and the grounded conductor are bonded at the first disconnect. Normally the panel but sometimes a disconnect at the meter. All the GFCI is doing it looking to see if almost all the current is returning on the grounded conductor.