Vimeo Licensing

[pstigerfan]

Orville- If there is enough interest from people to do it, then I'm not going to charge for it. We pay enough already for lights, controllers, and everything else; why pay for video hosting? I've already got plenty of space to cover it and I'm not going to use it all, so I'm willing to use it for something useful. (Plus, I already purchased the domain).

George- My post was not meant to sound biased in any way, but maybe I did not have all of the facts, and I apologize. It was not meant to sound political either.

I agree that something needs to be done regarding Internet pirating (movies, music, etc), but I don't see the harm in a 3-minute video of your house animated to music. As long as you bought the music (and didn't download it off the Internet), then you are well-within the rights to use it. I'm also not a lawyer, but that is the way I see it.

[pstigerfan]

pikadroo wrote:

pstigerfan wrote:

Orville- If there is enough interest from people to do it, then I'm not going to charge for it. We pay enough already for lights, controllers, and everything else; why pay for video hosting? I've already got plenty of space to cover it and I'm not going to use it all, so I'm willing to use it for something useful. (Plus, I already purchased the domain).

George- My post was not meant to sound biased in any way, but maybe I did not have all of the facts, and I apologize. It was not meant to sound political either.

I agree that something needs to be done regarding Internet pirating (movies, music, etc), but I don't see the harm in a 3-minute video of your house animated to music. As long as you bought the music (and didn't download it off the Internet), then you are well-within the rights to use it. I'm also not a lawyer, but that is the way I see it.

What hosting system are you using?

Drew

My company does website development and hosting so we run several servers at a local data center, operating on the Linux platform.

Haven't thought about what would run the site, probably an open-source content management system. There are numerous "You Tube" clone applications out there but I would stay away from those. I'm still thinking about it.

[Guest guest]

pstigerfan wrote:

Orville- If there is enough interest from people to do it, then I'm not going to charge for it. We pay enough already for lights, controllers, and everything else; why pay for video hosting? I've already got plenty of space to cover it and I'm not going to use it all, so I'm willing to use it for something useful. (Plus, I already purchased the domain).

George- My post was not meant to sound biased in any way, but maybe I did not have all of the facts, and I apologize. It was not meant to sound political either.

I agree that something needs to be done regarding Internet pirating (movies, music, etc), but I don't see the harm in a 3-minute video of your house animated to music. As long as you bought the music (and didn't download it off the Internet), then you are well-within the rights to use it. I'm also not a lawyer, but that is the way I see it.

Sounds good to me. Maybe you should start a new thread and a poll in the Coffee Shop to see how many folks would be interested in signing up.

You already have my vote for this!

As for internet downloading of music, the only, and I do mean *ONLY* time I ever do that is if the music can't be bought any longer, anywhere on CD or not available at any of the music sites where you purchase music from. Another resource I will and have used are DVD Movies for some of their end or title soundtracks if the song can't be found for purchase anywhere.

Other than some of the above factions, I buy all my music either as a single MP3 or the full CD, most often I usually buy the entire CD from a local music store.

[pstigerfan]

New thread in the Coffee Shop for the Video Hosting Site- it can be found at http://forums.lightorama.com/view_topic.php?id=32244&forum_id=81

[thedementedelf]

let me put in my two cents on this. I was the one that contacted ASCAP and BMI and they did say playing for your display is fine. Se we are all good on that. Now what happens when you put a video up on line. You are now making it a public performanc. Take a look at any CD's or if you have them old 45's or LP's it will say somewhere on there public performance prohibited. Buying a copy of the music does not give you a ASCAP/BMI Liscenes or does it give you an over ride on copyright laws. I saw someoen suggest putting up our own site for videos. I had a similar idea and wanted to call it YuleTube. But to do that I would have to get a license from BMI/ASCAP and any other company that licenses music. Put up your own site and the companies will come for you too.

[Surfing4Dough]

thedementedelf wrote:

Put up your own site and the companies will come for you too.

That was my first thought as well. Though to be fair, unless they rely on bot type data mining software to look for song "data fingerprints" it is unlikely that they would ever come across such a small site. (Kinda the same logic as the FCC probably not coming across a residential display that transmits a tad further than the legal limit.) Might be a reason to avoid a "tube" name for a domain since I would think that that would be the first place they would check.

Also thought of the yuletube.com name as well yesterday when first reading all of this. Even went and looked the availability of the domain but saw that it is registered through godaddy already.

[Surfing4Dough]

George Simmons wrote:

(I'm sure our resident super-sleuth SFD can find the thread)

I didn't realize that I had a new job title/description. :shock: I guess I will take it as a compliment. :cool:

[smeighan]

I have been curious if people have contacted ASCAP. I play in a non-profit community band here in Highlands ranch, CO.

I am on the board of the HRCB and was asked to look into any requirements we needed to pay when we perform in the local parks.

This was way more complicated than i originally thought. we buy the music we perform ($100-$200). We have the right to play it in practice, but it turns out, not in public.

Here are some quotes from the ASCAP website
http://www.ascap.com/licensing/licensingfaq.aspx



Why should I pay for playing music in public?
We often use the expression "they're playing my song," not always remembering that while we may have emotionally adopted the song, it still legally belongs to the songwriter who created it, and the music publisher who markets it. When you use other people's property, you need to ask permission.

What is a public performance?
A public performance is one that occurs either in a public place or any place where people gather (other than a small circle of a family or its social acquaintances.) A public performance is also one that is transmitted to the public; for example, radio or television broadcasts, music-on-hold, cable television, and by the internet. Generally, those who publicly perform music obtain permission from the owner of the music or his representative. However, there are a few limited exceptions, (called "exemptions") to this rule. Permission is not required for music played or sung as part of a worship service unless that service is transmitted beyond where it takes place (for example, a radio or television broadcast). Performances as part of face to face teaching activity at a non-profit educational institutions are also exempt.


I want to use music-on-hold in my business. Do I need permission?
Yes. When you place a caller on hold and transmit music via your telephone lines, that is a public performance of the music. It is your responsibility to obtain permission to perform ASCAP songs from ASCAP or directly from the copyright owner. ASCAP represents tens of thousands of copyright owners and millions of songs and an ASCAP license will give you the right to perform them all.



I bought the record or sheet music. Why do I need permission to perform the music?
Copyright owners enjoy a number of different rights including performance rights, print rights and recording rights. Rental or purchase of sheet music or the purchase of a record does not authorize its public performance.


How much will it cost to obtain an ASCAP license to perform music?
The annual rate depends on the type of business. Generally, rates are based on the manner in which music is performed (live, recorded or audio only or audio/visual) and the size of the establishment or potential audience for the music. For example, rates for restaurants, nightclubs, bars and similar establishments depend on whether the music is live or recorded, whether it's audio only or audio visual, the number of nights per week music is offered, whether admission is charged and several other factors.

Concert rates are based on the ticket revenue and seating capacity of the facility. Rates for music used by corporations ("Music In Business") are based upon the number of employees. College and university rates are based upon the number of full time students; retail store rates depend on the number of speakers and square footage. Hotel rates are based on a percentage of entertainment expenses for live music and an additional charge if recorded music is used.

Because ASCAP has over a hundred different licenses and rate schedules, one will likely fit your needs. ASCAP operates under the principle that similarly situated users should be treated similarly. This assures fairness and consistency in our licensing. For example, rates for restaurants of the same size, with the same use of music are the same regardless of whether the restaurant is in Oshkosh or New York City.

If you want to be entertained, look at the amount of different licensing that ASCAP has

http://www.ascap.com/licensing/types.html

BTW, creating a web site to host videos would not exempt you from the laws about presenting them to the public. You would probably just be considered another download site offering music that has not paid its license fees.

I am not a legal expert, i know for the band we decided to just pay a blanket fee each year of something like $300.


I perform in our Methodist church. We can perform the music to the congregation (That is covered in ASCAP), we cannot make a recording of our performance (say a CD) unless we pay fees. Our church is of course non-profit.
St Andrews Methodist Church.

i think someone might contact ascap or the other two agencies and just ask.

thanks
sean

[doug petschke]

Remember when those that made music were artists? not anymore, it's allabout the money and they are the ones pushing our congress for these laws. I don't have a problem with laws that prevent soneone from making money off music / videos of other people. but we do this for people not for the money. there is a difference

sooo sad i better go look at my page... lol

[smeighan]

Good News!

We do not need to pay a license fee for home Christmas shows.

All the Trans Siberian Orchestra songs are licensed under BMI (The other choice was ASCAP).

http://repertoire.bmi.com/title.asp?blnWriter=True&blnPublisher=True&blnArtist=True&page=1&keyid=7202018&ShowNbr=0&ShowSeqNbr=0&querytype=WorkID

I called the licensing department at BMI. Their interpretation is that a home christmas display is NOT a public performance, since it is on your property. He was a little iffy about the fact many people have FM transmitters. He still believed we are fine.

Now anyone who has a light show in any other location than a home probably needs a license. For BMI the license to use is called a promoter license. The band i belong to, Highlands Ranch Concert Band, pays a promoter license. We are a non-profit organization that never charges for our concerts. But, we still need a license.
http://www.bmi.com/licensing/entry/533029?q=Promoter+%2F+Presenter

The fee is based upon the seating at our events (Churches, high schools, parks). The minimum fee for this license is around $200/year.

If a home were to be considered a public performance then this is the license we would all have to get.

If any of you setup a light show for a church, city park or such. Those entities should have the license to cover your show.

For now (and hopefully the future) we do not need a license to play music in our home shows.

thanks

sean

[Guest guest]

smeighan wrote:

Good News!

We do not need to pay a license fee for home Christmas shows.

All the Trans Siberian Orchestra songs are licensed under BMI (The other choice was ASCAP).

http://repertoire.bmi.com/title.asp?blnWriter=True&blnPublisher=True&blnArtist=True&page=1&keyid=7202018&ShowNbr=0&ShowSeqNbr=0&querytype=WorkID

I called the licensing department at BMI. Their interpretation is that a home christmas display is NOT a public performance, since it is on your property. He was a little iffy about the fact many people have FM transmitters. He still believed we are fine.

Now anyone who has a light show in any other location than a home probably needs a license. For BMI the license to use is called a promoter license. The band i belong to, Highlands Ranch Concert Band, pays a promoter license. We are a non-profit organization that never charges for our concerts. But, we still need a license.
http://www.bmi.com/licensing/entry/533029?q=Promoter+%2F+Presenter

The fee is based upon the seating at our events (Churches, high schools, parks). The minimum fee for this license is around $200/year.

If a home were to be considered a public performance then this is the license we would all have to get.

If any of you setup a light show for a church, city park or such. Those entities should have the license to cover your show.

For now (and hopefully the future) we do not need a license to play music in our home shows.

thanks

sean

Yes, the Good News was that that was covered some time ago. All gave us a green light and go ahead for HOME BASED SHOWS.

The issue is: Do we need a License when we post a Video of OUR Home Display on a Video sharing site?

As that is a completely different area than just your basic home show ON YOUR PROPERTY. Again, what we're trying to find out is: If we video the home show and post it, do we need a license for that option?

And I think the answer to that question may come with a completely different answer. As this question has yet to be actually answered, from your post quoted above, it covers what we had already learned back in either November, probably more like in December 2011.

BTW: to those quoting the 'Fair Use Act", my interpretation and reading of that is the song CAN NOT be in it's full entirety, what it has to be is just a snippet of the song, then and only then would the "Fair Use Act" actually apply, if it's the full version of the song, then that would not be considered "fair use" and the video site would have every right to either pull the video or disable the audio portion of it.

I'm no lawyer by any means, I did take some law classes in college some time back, no, of course that doesn't make me an expert, but it does help one to try and get the meaning out of these documents, which in all reality are still OPEN to PERSONAL and INDIVIDUAL INTERPRETATION of them.

[shakeonit]

I understand about buying the songs and giving people their due; however, when it comes to posting videos, my belief is that you are promoting their material.

Case and point, I had never heard of TSO prior to watching a Christmas video to lights about 5 years ago, since then I have bought every album they have made, and attended a concert with my whole family. That would have never happened if not for a youtube poster. So, in my opinion I believe the artists themselves would want grace given in this area, as it is a promotional tool. That is a simple belief, not a statement on behalf of musical artists or bands.

Also, my personal experience with one group, The Oak Ridge Boys, when I used their song in my display,

, was one of joy and thanks. They, had some friends they knew in the area come see the lights last year, and 1 of the group members expressed to my friend that he planned on seeing them himself when he was going to be in the area during Christmas.

I believe that is the way it should be, and I think that putting redtape all over this issue is sad, but I see our freedoms being taken away everyday, so I can't say it surpises me. My only statement, is to take a stand and fight! Thanks!

[Guest guest]

shakeonit wrote:

I understand about buying the songs and giving people their due; however, when it comes to posting videos, my belief is that you are promoting their material.

Case and point, I had never heard of TSO prior to watching a Christmas video to lights about 5 years ago, since then I have bought every album they have made, and attended a concert with my whole family. That would have never happened if not for a youtube poster. So, in my opinion I believe the artists themselves would want grace given in this area, as it is a promotional tool. That is a simple belief, not a statement on behalf of musical artists or bands.

Also, my personal experience with one group, The Oak Ridge Boys, when I used their song in my display,

, was one of joy and thanks. They, had some friends they knew in the area come see the lights last year, and 1 of the group members expressed to my friend that he planned on seeing them himself when he was going to be in the area during Christmas.

I believe that is the way it should be, and I think that putting redtape all over this issue is sad, but I see our freedoms being taken away everyday, so I can't say it surpises me. My only statement, is to take a stand and fight! Thanks!

Beleive it or not, this is how I feel about it too.

And most artists I've been able to contact about using their music, beleive it or not feel the same way, IT DOES PROMOTE their music.

But on the other hand, there is software out on the internet that allows one to download the video and then strip the music from it, or it can strip the audio directly from the video as an MP3 file, then a little editing to get any additional sounds from the beginning or end of it, this is what I really beleive is the biggest problem with the video aspect among the mindset of most music moguls in the record industry that holds the label for those songs. And I can fully understand that too.

Even if you get the artists permission, the recording label unfortunately really has the final say in this, they are the ones claiming to lose money, but like you, if it weren't for my visiting displays and seeing them with the music intact, I never would have bought all the CD's I have and use the music from myself.

So in that respect, they made money. But seems they feel they lose more than they gain, so they complain to the video sites and have them either disable the audio portion or delete the video entirely.

Yes, it's sad that it has come to all this, and as someone may have said, it's this greed of money that's the driving force of it all.

[smeighan]

Since i only started in this hobby 1 month ago, i missed the thread where permission has been given to home shows. Sorry that i strayed from the thread.

So, i talked to BMI about getting permission to upload a video with the music as part of the video.

They said the process is:
1) Check BMI, ASCAP to find who is the publisher(s)
2) Contact the publisher. BMI/ASCAP has nothing to do with granting permission of using a song that is uploaded in a video.

In the case of Wizards in Winter, there are 3 publishers. Of the three shown, BMI said that i would talk to WARNER-TANERLAND

PAUL O NEILL PUBLISHING BMI 229222388
ROBERT STELLER PUBLISHING BMI 179828901
WARNER-TAMERLANE PUBLISHING CORP BMI 185314175

So i called them, they said if you want a video on the internet that you need to request a synchronization license.

So i went to http://www.warnerchappell.com/TemplateAction?system_action=getsync_departments&currenttab=licensing

I created an account for my self and added the song "Wizards in Winter" to the license request. I stated i have a home Christmas display that i took a video of it. They prompt you for how long you want a licenses, 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, 1 year. I requested 1 year. I have made no reference to any of these web sites (LSP, LOR or diylightanimation). as far as they know, i am the only person requesting this.

My request for license is now in their inbox and they will get back with the cost. When i receive the license quote , i will share it with you.

BTW, i do feel putting up web video is a good source of advertisement for these songs. We make the music more interesting by the dancing lights. We can see what their licensing decision is. Wouldn't it be nice if we could bill them for the free advertisement?

thanks
sean

[shakeonit]

smeighan wrote:

Wouldn't it be nice if we could bill them for the free advertisement?

LOL, now your talking... Just kidding, I don't want anything, and nor do the majority of people, we do what we do for our enjoyment, and the enjoyment of our families, friends, and communities. Going worldwide on the web, is just a bonus!

[Max-Paul]

Well with Youtube and any other like sites removing our light shows. I suppose this will do two things. Cut down the interest in LOR and other vendors. And I for one after seeing WIW at Carlstons(SP?) video. I went out and bought a CD and another CD by TSO. I would never have bought either CD if it had not been for that Video on Youtube.

[rwertz]

smeighan wrote:

Since i only started in this hobby 1 month ago, i missed the thread where permission has been given to home shows. Sorry that i strayed from the thread.

It wasn't that far from the original discussion, and it was nice to hear the same answer twice. It will be interesting to see how the publishers respond.

[smeighan]

If you want some humor

try reading
http://www.woodpecker.com/writing/essays/royalty-politics.htmlASCAP & BMI -- Protectors of Artists or Shadowy Thieves?

It does describe how a business that takes in nearly 1 billion dollars figures out who they should pay that money to.

[TitusCarnathan]

I have sent a video to Judy Pancoast since some of us uses her song house on christmas steet
it seems promising though with out a licence because on her site she has a link to you tube with an automatic search of videos of the houses with that song
I will post the reply of the email once I get it

that takes care of on of my videos I need to get
Bandaid do they know its christmas time taken care of next and since the greedy people of TSO want a licence my 2010 video goes byby

[TitusCarnathan]

edit I have sent an email to judy not a video I need that edit button and not a fake picture of one