This sort of puzzles me - 3 prong on controller output lines

[melwelch]

GaryMartin I wish I could write as good as you do.... Very well said....

Cutting corners to save money is the biggest hazard....

[tonyjmartin]

Orville wrote:

I have been thinking and thinking about this. Why do controllers have 3 prong grounded cords (dongles) or whatever one may call them for the Channel Outputs, when every Christmas Light Decoration I own is all 2 prong?

Since Dan has mentioned that there is an "insignificant" price difference between 2 and 3-prong dangles, I would vote that it's just a matter of convenience for the user. If your controller has 3-prong output cords, no matter what type of household extension cord you drag over to it, you will be able to make the connection without an adapter.

I don't think that UL certification applies to your PC controller package though. If memory serves, the Showtime line of controllers are the ones that carry a UL certification.

[-klb-]

It really is time to walk away from this thread. I know I am not going to change the opinion of anyone who has thought about this much, and I never intended to. I've met the objective of ensuring that any new to the hobby users reading the thread see opinions from both sides of the story. I'll just throw a couple more observations out here on my way out:

• 
  
• Not sure about rest of your displays, but much of mine sits on an area where just a few months ago, I dispensed a fair quantity of high ionic content material in a time release binder, with intent that it stay in the grass. I fully expect that any time it rains through the winter, some of that fertilizer will be in the surface water.
  
• Every subsection of 50 mini lights that is out is a broken return to neutral, and neither you, nor I, nor the annoying solicitors walking from door to door have any idea where those breaks are. It may be one socket that is hot, or it may be 50.
  
• Last I checked, V=IR held true if the primary circuit was intact or not. The hot leads are 115 V if the lights are working, or not. Your body and connection to ground are either (in at least some circumstances) capable of passing enough current from 115V to earth to be a hazard to life, or there is no reason for GFCIs in any application in the first place.
  
• As far as I can see, the arguments for not needing the GFCI protection in the display apply equally well to not needing GFCI protection for appliances used in the yard, kitchen, or bathroom. In fact, there is likely often less ionic content in the water in the kitchen and bath, than there is in the water on the lawn. I never fertilize my counter tops or bathtub. Though tap water is not nearly as pure as rain water, so maybe it comes out a wash...

[tonyjmartin]

I just love watching a Network Administrator, a Network Engineer, and a Systems Developer debate the use of ground fault protection. And the one electrician in the discussion just simply states that he's installing GFCI on the outlet. No arguing, no debate...he just says that's what he's going to do. And the rest of the thread digresses into debating the electrical conductive properties of pure/impure water.

And it all started with someone wondering why there were 3-prong dangles on his controller....

[GaryMartin]

I just cannot help myself.

http://www.livescience.com/environment/050106_odds_of_dying.html

Odds of dying to electrocution 1 in 5,000.

Odds of dying from fire or smoke 1 in 1,116.

Odds of dying from falling down 1 in 246.

Odds of dying from a motor vehicle accident 1 in 100.

Odds of dying from stroke 1 in 23.

Odds of dying from heart disease 1 in 5.


So it's accurate to say it is FIFTY times more likely that one would die from a motor vehicle accident than from electrocution.

You are 217 times more likely to give yourself a stroke by worrying about electrocution than from dying by electrocution.

And of course, last but not least, that greasy burger you just had for lunch is a thousand times more likely to kill you than Christmas lights in the rain.


(This post, while factual, is intended as a joke to lighten the mood. Please take it in the context it was intended.

[tonyjmartin]

GaryMartin wrote:

I just cannot help myself.

I can't help you either (also intended as a mood lightener)

I wonder how far the odds go up if the yard in which you're trespassing is a neighbors...or a member of the LOR Forums.

(Substitute PC, CC, DIY, D-Light, Aurora, LSP, SCL, TCL, LSH, CCF, or MHD if you like. )

[George Simmons]

I'm no electrician, but I'm no moron either. GFCI's weren't invented for no reason. Someone somewhere probably said something like "hmmm, I wonder if there's a way I can help prevent innocent people from being electrocuted?" Now someone please tell me why such a product would be invented for no good reason...

It seems to me that what so many of you anti-GFCI electron he-men fail to take into account is the lowest common denominator factor. The fact is that not everyone is as knowledgeable (?) or as lucky as you. The world is filled with idiots and GFCI's exist to protect the rest of us from those idiots. Do you think I give a damn if someone fries himself because he's too arrogant to use GFCI's? No I don't. I actually applaud anything that removes an idiot's genes from the pool. So those of you who enjoy grabbing a live line and standing in a puddle on a rainy day without GFCI protection - y'all have at it. As long as you're not my neighbor and as long as no one I care for comes into your yard I don't have a problem with your antics. But with the number of newbies that pass through these portals I think it's highly irresponsible for you to advocate a position that very few learned individuals share.

[tonyjmartin]

I think was is at work here is the tendency to lump everyone into a category that we either agree or disagree with and then take pot shots at that group if we disagree. I'm sorry, but the world is not so black and white. Just because someone questions the overall logic behind using or the effectiveness of GFCI's, it does not mean that they are advocating that they should be abandoned. They are merely pointing out some of the flaws in the logic behind their use. And I would hope that just because someone wholeheartedly believes in the proper use of GFCI's, then it would not necessarily follow that they believe that GFCI's are a some sort of sacred panacea for the prevention of electrocution in outdoor or moisture-prone environments.

For myself, I believe in use of GFCI's as indicated in the codes to reduce the risk of electrocution. But it is also true that the NEC's are in a constant state of revision. And just because a new code requirement appears, it does not necessarily follow that ALL installations that do not follow the new requirement are suddenly more or less hazardous than they ever were. The installation is the same. It is the new code requirement that changed. This is one of the reasons that many new codes only apply to new installations, not existing ones.

If someone has a house with exterior/bath outlets that were at code when they were originally installed, then the use of GFCI's does not apply to that house. Sure, it might be a good idea to install them, but it is not something that is a regulated requirement. This should be a factor when determining whether or not someone's installation is "wrong" and another's is "right."

This reminds me of the debate in the entertainment industry over whether or not it is safe to use "cherry-picker" lifts without their outriggers. We all knew that manufacturers started adding all kinds of "idiot proof" cutoff circuits to their lifts so that the equipment could not be used without outriggers. But this was a relatively recent development to increase safety and to reduce their liability should accidents occur. And in cramped spaces it was often impossible to to use a lift since the outriggers took up such a large footprint. So are you "stupid" if you find a way to use the lift without it's outriggers? Not necessarily. The reality is that it depends upon the user. Someone who knows very little about lifts, disables the outrigger cutoffs and then hangs outside the basket to reach something gets what they deserve IMHO. But the operator who disables the outrigger cutoffs and then takes additional precautions because they know that the lift is more likely to tip is certainly not being careless. And it flies in the face of logic to label both operators the same. And it certainly requires no skill on the part of a critic to criticize an operator for not following the manufacturer's instructions to the letter. Actually, it takes no skill at all, though this opinion is often offered as if merely quoting the manual bestows some level of knowledge or authority on the person offering their opinion. And drawing lines in the sand in this manner gets us nowhere.

Are GFCI's a good idea? Sure. Are they always required? No. Do they fail? Yes, but not as often as previously, but especially when exposed to surges. And nobody's yet mentioned how/where AFCI's or AFCI/GFCI combo's are now required. You might be surprised if you read the codes. And if the NEC indicated both kinds of protection, would you run right out and upgrade? And do I get to take a dim view of your and your opinion if you don't?

If you don't get what I'm saying, then you never will, and further debate is pointless. Opinions are like backsides. Everybody has one, and they all stink!

[shfr26]

Tony,

Lets have some fun, Get a cherry picker, put it in the display that does not have GFI's, wait for it to start raining in soft soil, walk aroung in the display, making sure we step on all the connections, and as a finale, lets raise the cherry picker with NO outriggers as high as we can and start grabbing all the connections WITHOUT GFI's with are bare hands in the rain.


EDIT: BTW, how can you take a 3 prong Dangle and plug it into a 2 prong cord like most are??

[tonyjmartin]

shfr26 wrote:

Tony,

Lets have some fun, Get a cherry picker, put it in the display that does not have GFI's, wait for it to start raining in soft soil, walk aroung in the display, making sure we step on all the connections, and as a finale, lets raise the cherry picker with NO outriggers as high as we can and start grabbing all the connections WITHOUT GFI's with are bare hands in the rain.


EDIT: BTW, how can you take a 3 prong Dangle and plug it into a 2 prong cord like most are??

LOL. If the electricity doesn't get you...then the added frustration of trying to roll a lift around a soggy yard should give you a heart attack.

Uh...the 3-prong output dangles have female connectors, so they aren't being plugged into anything. It's the extension cord [to the lights] that you are dragging over to the controller that has a male connector that plugs into the dangle. Unless I missed a joke in there somewhere...pulled the graveyard shift last night...I'm a little foggy right now.

[shfr26]

Oh, my controllers have male ends.

EDIT: I was thinking of power cords off the controller

[Max-Paul]

Gosh, this thread has gotten wrong in so many ways. Burppp!

[Tim Fischer]

Max-Paul wrote:

Gosh, this thread has gotten wrong in so many ways.  Burppp!

"Orville" caused a lot of problems over on PC (different username, but quite obviously the same person) and was finally driven away. I guess he landed here... :dude:

[Guest guest]

Tim Fischer wrote:

Max-Paul wrote:

Gosh, this thread has gotten wrong in so many ways. Burppp!

"Orville" caused a lot of problems over on PC (different username, but quite obviously the same person) and was finally driven away. I guess he landed here... :dude:

?

Who is causing problems here?

I started out asking a simple question and it was turned into something else completely different.

And I only stated information on the "hijacked" information that isn't as far off the mark as some may think either, and it appears there are quite a few others here that agree with what I stated where this thread went astray.

So I don't know who or what you're even talking about on a PC.

And what the heck is PC? Personal Computer? That's the only thing I know that abbreviation stands for.

I am on this forum because I have purchased equipment from LOR and this will be my first year using LOR controllers and the LOR forum seemed to be the most logical place for me to get answers or learn about my equipment from those that use it.

So I don't know who your "problem" person is, or was and I don't want to know, nor do I need to.

And it appears to me that you are the troublemaker just by coming in here and making accusations like that too.

[Tim Fischer]

"Orville",

PC is PlanetChristmas. I don't buy the fact that you claim not to be the same member as 'csx'-whatever on that forum, but I won't argue with you here (plenty of other people think the same thing). All I will say is that your posting style is identical, and you happened to join this forum the day of (or day after) csx "left" PC. Your age and locations are also compatible, and you both seem to enjoy cats.

[Tim Herberger]

[Guest guest]

Tim Fischer wrote:

"Orville",

PC is PlanetChristmas. I don't buy the fact that you claim not to be the same member as 'csx'-whatever on that forum, but I won't argue with you here (plenty of other people think the same thing). All I will say is that your posting style is identical, and you happened to join this forum the day of (or day after) csx "left" PC. Your age and locations are also compatible, and you both seem to enjoy cats.

Only CSX I know are the annoying trains that hold me up when I try to drive somewhere. Yes, I do like cats, but many people like cats.

And I have seen many folks that have had very similar or almost identical posting styles on other forums as well, doesn't mean they are the same person. Could be distant relatives perhaps, I couldn't say.



So folks can think what they want, I just know I wouldn't call myself CSX, why would anyone take the intials of a railroad company unless they worked for them? If I were going to use an alias name, it would be something more like "musicman" or "hi-tech-dude" or ???, hmmm I have no idea, I usually don't use aliases!

[Max-Paul]

Tim Herberger wrote:

Can I have some?

BTW where did you find that icon?

[Guest guest]

Nowhere did I ever claim to be an expert, and yes, my uncle is a licensed electrician and I have learned a lot from him on how to be safe, not sorry when it comes to working with live wiring and such.

If I hadn't I wouldn't still be here now would I? And I've watched supposedly certified electricians make blunders, no one on this Earth is mistake proof, no matter what anyone thinks.

But that is neither here, nor there. I was only stating my opinion and of what I know from my OWN EXPERIENCES of being zapped by electricity, nothing more, nothing less. And as far as I'm concerned life lessons don't always come from a book of codes or don't do this or do do that, it is gained from ones' own personal experiences with whatever that critera may be.

To be quite honest, when this thread started drifting astray from the original question I poised, and if I had the power to remove posts and even lock the thread, as I do on some other forums where I "started" the thread in the first place, I probably would have done the same here.

The question was answered, and then it went off on a totally different tangent, which seems a common occurrence in many forums across the internet, not just this one.

And all forums always have a few, that no matter what they or you say, or didn't say, always seem to get, or be the brunt of things, many times unjustly and unfairly too.

Some folks just by giving an opinion or an attempt to help someone gets blasted into the next universe, I've seen it far too many times to count. Instead of blasting and berating the poor soul, folks should try and help them to learn and offer their expertise so they can learn from possible mis-information they may have been given, especially if the person that found it now believes it to be true.

Not everything you find or read on the internet is valid either, and many folks find that "mis-information" on the 'net and believe it to be true, when it may not be at all. We should all be trying to aid each other, not be belittling, moaning and ruining what could and should be a good learning experience for someone that has a differing opinion than yours. Help them to see the probelm(s), to correct the problem(s).


But name calling, belittling and insulting will get none of us anywhere.

And this is the last comment I am making on this particular thread.

In my opinion it should have been closed after the answers were given and accepted. Of course, again, just my opinion, others may and probably will have differing opinions.

[Tim Fischer]

Orville wrote:

I was only stating my opinion and of what I know from my OWN EXPERIENCES

Wow, that's incredible that CSX always used that same phrase and exact same capitalization. But I'm sure you're two different people.

Perhaps, before blaming "the internet" for your posts always getting shot down, you should consider examining (and making positive changes to) your posting style?