This sort of puzzles me - 3 prong on controller output lines

[Guest guest]

I have been thinking and thinking about this. Why do controllers have 3 prong grounded cords (dongles) or whatever one may call them for the Channel Outputs, when every Christmas Light Decoration I own is all 2 prong?

Has anyone ever seen a Chrismas Decoration that has a 3 prong grounded plug? I have various sets of L.E.D. lights, all two prong connection, even my Christmas Tree just purchased last year from Sears that has a spinning tree motor is only 2 prong.

My 5' tall animated Santa uses a 2 prong DC adapter/transformer.

I can not find a single item in my Christmas decor that uses a 3 prong cord, NOT A ONE!

The only item in my Halloween decor that does use a 3 prong are my Fog Machines, but even they would not be plugged directly into a LOR controller, a relay to possibly push the "timer" button, but I just use my timers with them under their automatic settings and leave them alone.

So I got to thinking, why are all the channel outputs grounded when the grounding part of the plug has nothing plugged into it? Just leaving the open hole for dirt or whatever to get inside of.

Can someone tell me what I'm missing here?

Because I'd think it would be less time and a lot easier to wire a controller without the grounded "dongles", since Christmas Lighting and DC, even AC adapters are only 2 prong.

So even if this is a "safety issue", where's the safety if the ground point isn't utilized due to all the NON-GROUNDED plugs on our Christmas lights or display pieces.

I'm just curious to know why not just make the dongles mate with the basic 2-wire/2-prong Christmas light plugs instead of the 3-prong variety.

[Max-Paul]

Well Orville, I recon that I have never seen a decoration that uses the 3 prong plug myself. But I can tell you this, and it is not exactly the same subject. But this year I am going to put a 3 prong plug on my main supply cord going out to my first controller. I run almost 100% LEDs on my display. And you know what happens if yout hot lead is feeding your neutral lugs and your neutral is going through the fuses? First if you have a hot shorting to ground and do not have a GFI. Well lets say it would not be a perrty sight. But what I saw is that my LEDs had a ghostly glow to them. Once I flipped my plug so I was feeding hot to the fuses, the LEDs quit glowing. So, I can see the use of a 3 prong plug, but I really can see it on the dongles either. Must be a liability thing with the lawyers advising him to go this way.

[Guest guest]

Max-Paul wrote:

Well Orville, I recon that I have never seen a decoration that uses the 3 prong plug myself. But I can tell you this, and it is not exactly the same subject. But this year I am going to put a 3 prong plug on my main supply cord going out to my first controller. I run almost 100% LEDs on my display. And you know what happens if yout hot lead is feeding your neutral lugs and your neutral is going through the fuses? First if you have a hot shorting to ground and do not have a GFI. Well lets say it would not be a perrty sight. But what I saw is that my LEDs had a ghostly glow to them. Once I flipped my plug so I was feeding hot to the fuses, the LEDs quit glowing. So, I can see the use of a 3 prong plug, but I really can see it on the dongles either. Must be a liability thing with the lawyers advising him to go this way.

You could be right about the liability thing. I also agree with you on the controller itself being and having 3 prong grounded feeds, my main point was why do the outputs need them when it seems they aren't serving an real purpose. At least to me.



BTW: it doesn't matter which way I plug in my L.E.D. strings, they work the same way either direction. So I haven't experienced the ghost glow EXCEPT only when the strings would get wet when it rains, flipping the plug did nothing to correct that, they still glowed lightly. maybe a snubber may have stopped this I don't know.

Guess I need to get some 47K resistors and make some and test that out and see what happens.



BTW: I've had and seen L.E.D.'s literally explode in bad or poorly designed circuits, haven't had any issues like that with any of my L.E.D. strings.

I do understand elecrtrical and electronic circuits and such, worked in the industry for close to or maybe even over 40+ years! And I have an Uncle that's a certified electrician I can ask when I have doubts or questions about something.

[Guest guest]

Jeff, I think you may be right. UL approval may actually be the reason for the grounded dongles. Don't know why I didn't even think about that as even being a reason for the grounded dongles!

[GaryMartin]

If it's not UL approval, then I would hazard a guess that it's the economy of using those grounded pigtails. You can buy those a lot cheaper than most non grounded pigtails.

Mass production wins again?

[-klb-]

Orville wrote:

BTW: it doesn't matter which way I plug in my L.E.D. strings, they work the same way either direction. So I haven't experienced the ghost glow EXCEPT only when the strings would get wet when it rains, flipping the plug did nothing to correct that, they still glowed lightly. maybe a snubber may have stopped this I don't know.

Guess I need to get some 47K resistors and make some and test that out and see what happens.

What Max-Paul was describing is what happens when the controller is plugged in backwards, not the LEDs. LOR when plugged in correctly switches the hot lead, and keeps neutral connected to the load.

If you get hot and neutral to the controller mixed up, then you have the neutral leads in the pigtails all bonded to hot, and live any time there is power to the controller, and you are switching neutral on the hot leads of the pigtails. Not the safest thing to be doing, as you have lights that are off, but still an electrical hazard. And having all the LED stings with 1 lead hot allows for leakage current to earth ground, (especially when wet) which may light some LED dimly before it is enough to trip a GFCI.

[Guest guest]

-klb- wrote:

Orville wrote:

BTW: it doesn't matter which way I plug in my L.E.D. strings, they work the same way either direction. So I haven't experienced the ghost glow EXCEPT only when the strings would get wet when it rains, flipping the plug did nothing to correct that, they still glowed lightly. maybe a snubber may have stopped this I don't know.

Guess I need to get some 47K resistors and make some and test that out and see what happens.

What Max-Paul was describing is what happens when the controller is plugged in backwards, not the LEDs. LOR when plugged in correctly switches the hot lead, and keeps neutral connected to the load.

If you get hot and neutral to the controller mixed up, then you have the neutral leads in the pigtails all bonded to hot, and live any time there is power to the controller, and you are switching neutral on the hot leads of the pigtails. Not the safest thing to be doing, as you have lights that are off, but still an electrical hazard. And having all the LED stings with 1 lead hot allows for leakage current to earth ground, (especially when wet) which may light some LED dimly before it is enough to trip a GFCI.

Ahh, that makes sense. This is my first year with LOR and my CTB16PC was the "complete" unit, so everything was already connected I believe. But then again, I bought this particular unit used and this will be my first session with it utilizing a test sequence to test out the new Showtime MP3 Director, FM Transmitter and the CTB16PC together. Looks like all the dongles and everything is wired correctly in the box. Now as for my house, that could pose a problem as when I first added the GFCI to my outside outlet by the garage, it wouldn't work and said it was wired incorrectly. I found that the original electricians that wired it had wired the HOT and NEUTRALS backwards!:shock: Not a good thing, kept wondering before I installed the GFCI with this indicator for miswired connections, I would always wonder why the Circuit Breaker only on this outlet would trip every time it rained (even though it was covered).

Anything plugged into the original miswired outlet would trip the CB any time it rained or when the sprinkler system was activated, thereby shutting the sprinklers down since they too, were on this circuit and plugged into the same outlet.

Reversed the reversed wires, the GFCI light now showed it was wired properly, put a new cover over it and no more circuit breaker trips. The only time the GFCI tripped is on the sets of 3 L.E.D. lights I had as a fence line attached to some candy cane decorations (plastic) with zip ties. Whenever there female plugs got wet, even though they were off ground and hung facing downward, every time these particular strings got wet, the GFCI would trip. Could not find a thing wrong with any of the strings and they would get a very dim, faint glow everytime they got wet. Until I wrapped the male2female connections bound as tightly as I could with electrical tape, then this stopped the problem and never had another GFCI trip the entire time the lights were on. Kind of weird actually.

Normally I try not to use tape on my plugs, but in this case, it's the only thing that worked on these strings.



But as for the reversed HOT and Neutrals, that could still very well be a problem inside the house as well, I can't say for sure. Just know the outside outlet was wired wrong, so that does make me wonder if any of the inside outlets may also be miswired!

[DanglinModifiers]

I've got 4 controllers with LOR grounded dongles, and 4 I made up with 2 prong, polarized dongles.

You'll be thankful for that third prong the first time you try to plug a standard green extension cord into a non-grounded dongle.

[Max-Paul]

Sorry, going to take this a bit more off topic. Being an electrican I should have put a GFI on the outlet last year, will this year.

I also had one other little thing to add that might save someone some time in the future. If you are running LEDs and notice that A) your controllers appear to have lost power for what ever reason. Yet your LEDs are ghosting (very dim). Your problem might be a lost neutral, or open circuit in the neutral lead. I am wiring my controllers together using appliance quick connectors (spade and flatten C female). Seems that I missed restraighting the male after the crimp. When I slid the female over the male I did not see that the spade missed its mark and slid under the female. Had a short in one of my strings that blew the fuse and this loose connection blew too. This is how the neutral became open. So it appears that all of the Triacs turned on in the down stream controllers. And as klb said how if the one lead to your strings are hot then there is enough cap coupling to ground to cause the LED to faintly glow.

My appology for Hi-jacking again. Can you say hi-jacking without the police arresting me here in this forum?:shock:

[LightORamaDan]

There is an insignificant difference in price between two prong and 3 prong.

Dan

[melwelch]

I love the 3 prong plugs. I run 3 prong extension cords all the way to the string of lights... I do not and will not use GFIs. And no amusement park workers were killed last year working on lights (reference to a previous post... lol)

People are having a problem with GFIs for a reason... It is to trip in a hurry at 5 mA. Too quick for outdoor lighting with cords laying on the ground...

A word of warning... DO NOT WRAP YOUR CONNECTIONS All you will do is hold water in. It is almost impossible to wrap a connection with tape or plastic to keep the water out... It will creep in the smallest of openings and stay and sit there.

Here is some interesting statistics on GFIs:


Those of you who cuts corners and uses SP2 type of wire take note....
"A GFCI doesn't give you a license to be careless. Severe electric shock or death can occur if you touch the hot and neutral conductors in a GFCI-protected circuit at the same time because the current transformer within the protection device won't sense an imbalance between the departing and returning current and the switching contacts will remain closed."

Is your GFI working or do you assume it is...
"In addition, GFCI protection devices fail at times, leaving the switching contacts closed and allowing the device to continue to provide power without protection. According to a 1999 study by the American Society of Home Inspectors, 21% of GFCI circuit breakers and 19% of GFCI receptacles inspected didn't provide protection, leaving the energized circuit unprotected. In most cases, damage to the internal transient voltage surge protectors (metal-oxide varistors) that protect the GFCI sensing circuit were responsible for the failures of the protection devices. In areas of high lightning activity, such as southwest Florida, the failure rate for GFCI circuit breakers and receptacles was over 50%!"

WATER IS A POOR CONDUCTOR OF ELECTRICITY... I have been running a static or animated display for about 35 years and no one has been shocked, tingled or lit up because I do not use GFIs...

GFIs are great for what they were designed for and outdoor Christmas lights is not one of them....

[-klb-]

melwelch wrote:

Those of you who cuts corners and uses SP2 type of wire take note....
"A GFCI doesn't give you a license to be careless. Severe electric shock or death can occur if you touch the hot and neutral conductors in a GFCI-protected circuit at the same time because the current transformer within the protection device won't sense an imbalance between the departing and returning current and the switching contacts will remain closed."

I'm guessing that the quoted source says nothing about grounded, or ungrounded cords. The statement about hot and neutral contact on the same circuit is equally true if a ground is running with them or not. Now a ground in there will give you a 2 out of three chance that one of the first two wires you contact will be ground, and trip a functional GFCI, but that is just a change in the odds. However, I would argue that it is relatively unlikely, especially for a pet or child that wanders into the display that they will get different limbs on hot an neutral of the same circuit, but far more likely to get a circuit from hot on one limb, to ground on another. Hot and neutral on the same limb, without an imbalance through some other limb is quite unlikely to cause a fatal current through the chest cavity, and more likely to produce non fatal burns.

In contrast, how exactly does running a ground to everything provide additional protection for you, your guests, your property, or anything else?

[-klb-]

melwelch wrote:

Is your GFI working or do you assume it is...
"In addition, GFCI protection devices fail at times, leaving the switching contacts closed and allowing the device to continue to provide power without protection. According to a 1999 study by the American Society of Home Inspectors, 21% of GFCI circuit breakers and 19% of GFCI receptacles inspected didn't provide protection, leaving the energized circuit unprotected. In most cases, damage to the internal transient voltage surge protectors (metal-oxide varistors) that protect the GFCI sensing circuit were responsible for the failures of the protection devices. In areas of high lightning activity, such as southwest Florida, the failure rate for GFCI circuit breakers and receptacles was over 50%!"

Very true. That is why they have test buttons on them, and why it is easy to buy a circuit test plug that includes a GFCI test button. It would be wise for people to go through, and test their GFCIs at the start of each season.

[Salts]

Basically most people are still using regular extension cords, myself included, and those have three prongs. I do hope to make up some SPT cords this year but I would hate to have that many regular extension cords lying around and not be able to use them just b/c a controller didn't have the right outlet. I also would not want to break the ground off of each cord either.

[-klb-]

melwelch wrote:

WATER IS A POOR CONDUCTOR OF ELECTRICITY... I have been running a static or animated display for about 35 years and no one has been shocked, tingled or lit up because I do not use GFIs...

GFIs are great for what they were designed for and outdoor Christmas lights is not one of them....

I personally do not know a single person who was saved by a car airbag. I do know one person who would likely be dead if they were wearing a seat belt during an accident.

Does this imply that we should all disconnect our airbags, disable our ABS, and remove our seatbelts from our cars?

I'll admit that so far, I can not currently find stats, or news stories on amusement park workers, holiday display workers, or homeowners who have been injured due to not using GFCI protection. However, you can find stories about dogs killed by stray voltage. The fact that those with GFCIs are complaining about trips does imply that there is current leaking out of our strings of lights, or other aspects of our wiring. Suppose someone is rude enough to let their dog out of the car for a break, and said dog runs up into your display. They get one paw on one of those strings that is leaking to ground, and one of the others on wet soil, and we have a not good situation. If the owners take it to trial, do you really think that the fact that the dog was trespassing is going to give you much legal protection? After all, you have created an attractive nuisance in your yard. Even having a failed GFCI on your circuits shows that you are paying attention to protecting the public from your electrical use, and are not totally negligent in safety. Better yet would be to show that you had a regular test program for your GFCIs... I'd guess that fewer (far fewer) than 1 in 100,000 people will save a life from GFCI protection, but the way that this country is going hog wild on safety , and litigation, it might be good to think about. Even if you think you have nothing of value, do you have a retirement plan? Is it worth protecting?

Of course, writing all that leaves a really sour taste in my mouth, and I don't like thinking that way, or the need to think that way. I survived growing up frequently riding in rear facing seats in a station wagon, and going without seat belts frequently. I learned to drive in that same station wagon, with only lap belts. But, I still believe that there is value in GFCI protection on holiday lighting.

[Tim Meyer]

-klb- wrote:

I survived growing up frequently riding in rear facing seats in a station wagon, and going without seat belts frequently. I learned to drive in that same station wagon, with only lap belts. But, I still believe that there is value in GFCI protection on holiday lighting.

I agree, klb. I have been bit by 110 and 220, arm was sore for 2 days after the 220 one. GFCI beakers can be used and eliminat the need for each outlet to be GFCI, but the down fall being if the breaker trips, which outlet tripped it?? I prefer the outlet to be GFCI and using the better GFCI protected outlets will lessen the chance of a failure in that outlet. I for one will be using GFCI oulets for my light display. I have a lot of activity at my home and will feel a little better knowing I have done what I could to protect myself and anyone else from getting a jolt.

[Guest guest]

I dare the person that stated this: "WATER IS A POOR CONDUCTOR OF ELECTRICITY..." to go string their PLUGGED IN holiday lights up IN BAREFEET on WET GROUND and then tell me that. If they survive!



Water IS NOT a poor conductor of electricity, if it were then we'd run our shows in a blinding downpour and not think twice about it.



My uncle WHO IS a LICENSED ELECTRICIAN said that anyone that thinks water is such a poor conductor, then sooner ot later they're going to learn the hard way, he just hopes that when they do it isn't fatal to them!



GFCI's are the best investment I made and they do work, they trip when they are supposed to and those facts being touted are OUTDATED by 10 YEARS! Technology and many other things have IMPROVED and CHANGED within that 10 year stretch!



So curent GFCI's are made better and will continue to improve as time progresses.



Anyone that thinks GFCI's are a waste of time are just asking for it at some point. I hope they never get it.

I've worked with electricity and electronic components for well over 40+ years, in my lfe, and it happens to the best of us too, I have been shocked several times and it wasn't pleasant either, it hurts and I'm lucky to still be around from a couple of those HIGH VOLATGE hits from my past when I was just learning some of this stuff and made an error or two. Painful learning curve, that's for sure!



I will continue to use GFCI's, mine gets tested via it's test button at least once a week to be sure it works properly.



Now as for airbags, my sister actually WAS saved by the one inflating in her car, she WAS NOT wearing a seatbelt and the officer that cited her for not wearing the seatbelt told her that if the airbags HAD NOT deployed or the vehicle was an olderone and didn't have them, she would have been killed by the impact and thrown though the windshield, I've always worn my seatbelt, even as a child in those rear facing seats, we had seatbelts and my parents made sure we were buckled in before they'd even pull out of the driveway. As for airbags, I detest them myself, never have liked them, I prefer just a seatbelt, but they're in the vehicles and so...



Anyway, I would never operate any of my display elements outside without the use of GFCI's and the ones I have do work and they work fast when an issue does come up. So I'll continue on using and recommending them, they ARE THE SAFEST WAY TO DISPLAY YOUR DISPLAYS! As far as I'm concerend anyway.

[melwelch]

Orville wrote:

I dare the person that stated this: "WATER IS A POOR CONDUCTOR OF ELECTRICITY..." to go string their PLUGGED IN holiday lights up IN BAREFEET on WET GROUND and then tell me that. If they survive!



Water IS NOT a poor conductor of electricity, if it were then we'd run our shows in a blinding downpour and not think twice about it.

You dared me and I am here... Do you understand the word "poor". It does not mean "Will not".

Salt water is a good conductor of electricity... Fresh water is not... In fact water with NO impurities WILL NOT CONDUCT ELECTRICITY!!!!! This is a fact!!!!! You did go to school right.

You people come on about GFIs with "SPECULATION" of what could happen... Yet there is no one being killed or injured with their displays... You stand a bigger chance of lightning hitting your display and killing someone... So do you have lightning rods up?

As far as not running your show in a down pour... Speak for yourself... Mine is up and running in a down pour... And yes this year I was out in the down pour hooking up lights in the rain to live extention cords.....

All I am wanting to do is let the people know GFIs are not required... Just like the Man made Global Warming hoax not everyone agrees....

If you want to use GFIs I have no problem with what you do... But to say GFIs are the only way to go is wrong....

If you have a display and a child or pet walking around will get electrocuted.... Well you gave a much bigger issue and maybe you should not be doing Christmas displays and running with scissors...

[GaryMartin]

Orville wrote:

Water IS NOT a poor conductor of electricity, if it were then we'd run our shows in a blinding downpour and not think twice about it.

What he said wasn't qualified correctly to be true.

*PURE* water is a very poor conductor of electricity. That is scientific fact, go look it up.

Moving past that *fact*, it's the ions IN water that can conduct electricity. IE, salt water has a high ion content and conducts far, far better than just inland rain water.

A common rule of thumb is the dirtier, or more contaminated water is, the more likely it is to conduct electricity.

Now with that out of the way, there is some paranoia being bandied about in this thread about electrical shock. Let's consider the facts about our favorite stuff, electricity:

1) Electricity must flow, must complete a circuit to return to ground. Without flow (and the proceeding potential for it) there is no power, no juice and no ability to get shocked.

2) Electricity ALWAYS takes the path of least resistance. This is where really understanding power is important.

If you're standing out in your yard, in the pouring rain, holding your string of Christmas lights and they're powered up AND WORKING CORRECTLY then your chances of getting shocked are extremely small.

Before anyone starts sputtering, please pay close attention to that statement. If the return to Neutral wire is NOT broken, then it provides a drastically better, much less resistive path back to ground than a wet person does. It's a huge difference in resistance actually and it's why people have been using Christmas lights since 1880 (fact, look it up) without getting electrocuted.



Now, where GFCI comes into play, is where something HAS GONE WRONG. Where a wire is cut/broken, such that the normal return path isn't there. Where there is a hot line out in the yard that doesn't have a return path (no circuit) and a wet person suddenly provides such a return path, albeit at a vastly higher resistance than a completed electrical circuit.

A GFCI is a very simple device actually. It is a pair of measuring devices. They measure the flow of electricity going out the hot and returning on the neutral. When those measured rates of flow do not match, well then "Houston we have a problem" and they quickly disconnect the hot lead.


Do some quick checking on people killed by "Electrocution by Christmas Lights".

You will find outliers caused mostly by unsafe behaviour. IE, "Man killed while hanging Christmas lights". The title doesn't say that this idiot threw a string of minilights over a 12,000 kilovolt high power line while trying to decorate a very tall tree. A line like that has such high potential that it can conduct right through that pathetic little insulation on some SPT1 or 2, through the guy, etc.

You will find other stories like "My cat was electrocuted by Christmas Lights", details there are the cat *chewed* through the wire, breaking the normal circuit and becoming PART of the return path. Nuff said.

In each and every one of those "Death by Christmas Lights" you will see a recurring theme, either someone being extremely unsafe or cutting into wiring in some fashion.

None of those stories talk about random, spurious electrocution or shock caused because Christmas lights got wet outside.


So, is it safe to run Christmas lights outside in the wet? As long as all of your wiring is in perfect condition, the scientific answer is an absolute YES. As long as all of your insulation is appropriate to the conditions and environment and in good working condition, then it's not an issue and will work fine without endangering anyone like it has for the last 130 years.

Now if you're not good about keeping all of your wiring in perfect condition, if you don't THROW AWAY extensions that get nicked or chewed on but instead just slap some electrician's tape over the damaged area, then yes, YOU NEED TO USE GFCIs! Insulation works great as long as it's in good condition and there. Tape is NOT a good replacement. A piece of very tight shrink tubing is, but is often not realistic as you can't get it over plugs to patch a damaged area.


Now myself, I don't use extension cords like most do. I *buy* extension cords from Home Depot, when the 16/2 with ground, 50 footers are on sale for under $7 or so. I then chop them up and custom make all of my power lines. All connections are soldered together and shrink wrapped via heavy shrink tubing making for well insulated wiring. If, no *when* the damn rabbits come and chew on wires, I rip out the entire section of wiring involved and replace the whole thing. I cut out the damaged areas and if there's enough of a shorter run left over to be useful, I may use it elsewhere for repairs, but most likely it's going in the trash.

I check my wiring at *least* every other night, if not nightly when I get off work for damage. I don't let stuff go that's in bad condition.

All of that being said, I don't use GFCIs. I maintain my wiring rigidly instead. I will gladly stand outside in the rain, barefoot, and handle any piece of my display without concern.

[GaryMartin]

melwelch wrote:

As far as not running your show in a down pour... Speak for yourself... Mine is up and running in a down pour... And yes this year I was out in the down pour hooking up lights in the rain to live extention cords.....

All I am wanting to do is let the people know GFIs are not required... Just like the Global Warming hoax not everyone agrees....

Thanks for being another voice of reason.

I also run my display in pouring down rain and it runs just fine. Matter of fact, I was *adding* another Bellagio pole in the middle of a freezing rain/sleet storm on Christmas Eve. I didn't have the poles done before then and wanted them up for Christmas Day's crowd so yes, middle of the day in a downpour of freezing rain I was out in the yard *wiring* up another Bellagio pole. Granted, I used a patio umbrella over my controller enclosures as I didn't want moisture in there while connecting wires, but besides being very cold, it was a total non-issue.