SVG files with a matrix

[stevehoyt]

I have a 25 pixel high by 32 wide pixel matrix. It has 2 inch spacing. I have struggled for years with getting the pictures to look good. Up until now, I have been using either JPG or GIF files. I have spent countless hours resizing them, but am rarely happy with the result. I have blamed it on the 2 inch spacing mostly. I have thought of going to 1 inch spacing or some other type of higher resolution display, but would like to avoid all the work. Not to mention the display sits on my roof and right now is 4 feet high by 5 feet wide. It isn't easy to get up there and keep up there with the storms.

In any case, this weekend I played a bit with SVG files and the sketch motion effect. I had never heard of SVG files before.  I used the svgrepo site lightorama suggested. There are some great pics and the editor is very easy to use. I won't have access to my live matrix until November. So now a couple questions.

1) I tried SVG files at different pixel sizes i.e 64 and 220. During the preview playback I could see no difference in the way they looked. Will there be any in real life. I see SVG files are meant to be scaled, for web use, so suspect LOR 6 is taking this into account when importing.

2) I compared a jpg file and a similar SVG file for the same pic. Again during  the preview playback can't see any difference. So is there any reason to choose one versus the other?

3) Any other input/insights in general on SVG versus JPG/GIF would be appreciated.

Thanks

Steve

[MattBrown]

SVG files are great when you plan to share your sequence, or when you plan to use the Sketch effect on props that have different pixel resolutions. They scale very well.

Also, once you import an SVG file into a Sketch effect, you can modify it. You can change colors, move or animate lines, etc.

Finally, once you import an SVG, the original SVG is no longer referenced by the sequence. So if you work on the sequence from a different computer, there is no need to copy the SVG too.

Matt

[k6ccc]

1 hour ago, stevehoyt said:

I have a 25 pixel high by 32 wide pixel matrix. It has 2 inch spacing. I have struggled for years with getting the pictures to look good. Up until now, I have been using either JPG or GIF files. I have spent countless hours resizing them, but am rarely happy with the result. I have blamed it on the 2 inch spacing mostly.

The biggest issue is simply the tiny number of pixels.  If you're old enough to remember CGA mode on ORIGINAL PCs and how BAD it looked?  Well, that is roughly an order of magnitude better resolution than your matrix.  There is only so much you can do with only 25 or 32 pixels.

Now, with that said, you can get at least half way usable graphics on a small matrix or commonly on pixel trees.  But you have to stay with fairly simple graphics that have high contrast color changes.  MOST imported graphics do not meet these requirements.  Same issue with videos.  You take a clip from your favorite movie and try to display is on a small matrix and it's not going to look good.  OK, my opinion is they look like crap.

 

[Box on Rails]

I agree with Jim. I used to use a 32 x 24 matrix and It didn't matter what picture or video format I used. It looked bad. I now use a 100x50 and a 50x48 matrix and the resolution is much more acceptable for a light show. It really doesn't matter what type of picture file you use for appearance because most show matrix are so low resolution. but as Matt pointed out, when using more then one computer for show and sequencing the SVG files has advantages when moving back and forth between computers. I also suggest an online pixel program I use to convert pictures into low resolution picture files. It's called https://www.piskelapp.com/ I just make a grid to match my Matrix resolution, 50x48, then load the picture I want to use. It chops it into a 50x48 picture and then down load the new picture in what ever format you want to use. for me It has created a better picture that has a little more clarity on playing it in the Matrix. I have also used this program to create animation Motion effects rows. But that's a whole different level of animation I stumbled onto in S6. Hope this helps.

Kenny Jure

[stevehoyt]

Thanks to all @Box on Rails, @k6ccc,and @MattBrown for your comments. They are helpful. I think the first plan of attack will be. to put in some more work on my existing pics using the piskel editor. I had been using it but not with a default grid that matches my setup. I'll see if that helps. Secondly now that I have played with SVG files a bit and am more comfortable using the sketch tool, I can see that it maybe far easier to work with files than my old way of editing and importing many times.

One other question.

As I mentioned above, my current matrix was made using holiday coro pixel mesh net with 2 inch spacing and 800 nodes. Given all my roof constraints, etc. about the only thing feasible would be to redo the matrix with 1 inch spacing and double the nodes to 1600 for the same area. Right now it is approximately 4 feet high by 5 feet wide.

I would appreciate any comments on whether any of you think the gain would be worth the effort. 

Or if you have any other ideas, that would be great too. RGB Pixel screens don't appear to be an option for this roof application.

Thanks in advance.

Steve

[Little_b]

I agree with what has been said here.  I have a 126 x 63 pixel matrix with 3" spacing on my roof, and I still have to do a lot of work to make pics look decent.  I have used the Piskel program to make animated gifs with much success.  I also use Paint.net as well.  I set the canvas to the same size as my matrix, (or smaller).  The trick I learned over the years is to not have a lot of transitioning colors between pixels.  They are what tend to make it "blurry."   Instead of fading from Red to Blue over a couple rows of pixels, just go directly from red to blue.  More clear.  Think of the old retro video games with Block Graphics.  Making a curve is near impossible with very few pixels.  The other thing I found to help is when using an existing pic, is to black out the background.  Having a white or bright background will hide the pic you're trying to feature as well.  Having a large contrast between the background and main feature will help make it stand out.

[Box on Rails]

20 hours ago, stevehoyt said:

One other question.

As I mentioned above, my current matrix was made using holiday coro pixel mesh net with 2 inch spacing and 800 nodes. Given all my roof constraints, etc. about the only thing feasible would be to redo the matrix with 1 inch spacing and double the nodes to 1600 for the same area. Right now it is approximately 4 feet high by 5 feet wide.

I would appreciate any comments on whether any of you think the gain would be worth the effort. 

Or if you have any other ideas, that would be great too. RGB Pixel screens don't appear to be an option for this roof application.

Thanks in advance.

Steve

Yes, the gain would be worth the effort. With a pixel Matrix, more always means better clarity. With your limited space, I would suggest using a 50 x 48 Matrix with 1 inch spacing. This set up allows for the use of 16 ports with 150 pixel strings witch is perfect for a Pixie or PixCon 16. This is my set up for my 50x48 Matrix. I also use a 100x 50 Matrix but the prop is wired as two 50x50 matrixes. This matrix uses two pixie 16s and one CCP II to control the 5000 pixels.  I use Motion effects set to, Three 100x50 ME rows, three left 50x50 rows  and Three right 50x50 Rows. this set up allows me to use the 100x50 ME row for picture and movie files that are wide screen format and also use the left and right sides for some of my square animation files. Between the 2 Matrixes, I can have a total of three singing animation picture going on at once on the  2 matrixes with pretty good clarity. My 50 x 48 is spaces at one inch and I think my 100x50 pixels mess is spaced at 7/8 of an inch. That's about as small of a spacing you can go with a mesh screen without reducing the strength of the mesh. To go smaller on the spacing  you would now have to look into P5/P10 pixel panels. @k6ccc could tell you more about these. 

Edited August 16, 2023 by Box on Rails

[stevehoyt]

@Box on Rails

Thanks for all your help. I was working some more on this today. I assumed I could just buy some more Holiday coro mesh for this. I checked with them today and they told me their mesh won't work with 1 inch spacing. I measured the 5 volt nodes I have and they would seem to fit.

In any case, would you ming telling me whose mesh you are using that would be compatible with 5 volt and 12 volt square nodes. Even better would be if it came in the standard sizes of S6 prop definitions we are talking about. 

I am currently planning on building a 50 by 48 mesh that you mentioned. Also, I hope to repurpose the 2 25 by 32 matrixes. I am thinking maybe 50 by 32. Not sure yet. 

Thanks

Steve

[Box on Rails]

13 hours ago, stevehoyt said:

@Box on Rails

In any case, would you ming telling me whose mesh you are using that would be compatible with 5 volt and 12 volt square nodes. Even better would be if it came in the standard sizes of S6 prop definitions we are talking about. 

I am currently planning on building a 50 by 48 mesh that you mentioned. Also, I hope to repurpose the 2 25 by 32 matrixes. I am thinking maybe 50 by 32. Not sure yet. 

Thanks

Steve

This is the one I have for the 100x50 at .95 of an in spacing. https://gilbertengineeringusa.com/products/matrix-4x8?_pos=2&_sid=5b7b646d8&_ss=r I cut this Same Mesh in Half for the 50x48 and left the top row and bottom row empty so I had more attaching space for the frame. My 50 x 48 Matrix used to have a 1.5 inch spacing mesh. I can't remember from whom I got it but the spacing was to big for my liking.

It sounds like this 100x50 might work out well for you. You can make the 50 x 48 and the 50x32 by just cutting the mesh in Half. Have fun with it. 

Kenny

[k6ccc]

OK, now that I am home from the hospital (knee replacement surgery - it went well so far) and able to get onto a computer...

If you really want to get serious, think about going to P10 or even P5 panels.  Your 4 foot high by 5 foot wide in P10 panels 5 panels wide and 8 panels high or 160 pixels wide by 128 pixel high for a total of 20,480 pixels.  If you went with P5 panels it would double for numbers to 320 x 256 to 81,920 pixels.  P10 panels have pixel spacing at 10 mm and P5 panels space the pixels at 5 mm.  Here are mine for a comparison:

http://www.newburghlights.org/photos/Matrix_panels_hanging_close-up.jpg

 

The top one is a 4w x 3h P10 (128 x 48 = 6,144 pixels or 36 DMX universes).

The bottom one is a 3w x 2h P5 (192 x 64 = 12,288 pixels or 72 DMX universes).

 

[stevehoyt]

@k6ccc@Box on Rails

K6ccc glad to hear you knee is healing. A couple of my neighbors had that surgery. Sticking with the Physical therapy they told was hugely important.

Anyway, I thought I would followup a bit on my situation here. I am envious of your P5 and P10. I have always thought they would be the best for me. As you may have seen in my earlier comments, I am somewhat constrained given my house.  I have included a iCloud link to show what I am dealing with.  I am stuck with the current roof installation, 60 mile per hour winds to deal with, and since I can't go on the roof any longer, something my yard helpers can deal with and doesn't need any attention once it is up. Over the years they have become experienced with putting my roof components up and dealing with my amateur jerry rigging. Also while I have played with DMX, I fear creating such a complex DMX environment and perhaps E.1.31, is fraught with potential trouble spots. I maintain and troubleshoot on my own so I need to keep it as simple as possible. 

I think the best option for now is going with the 50 by 48 inch matrix and the gilbert engineering 1 inch flexible matrix might be the best for me. I would appreciate any other comments you and box might have. Thanks

The link shows the roof of the house about 15 feet at the peak and the 3 2 x 4 "horses", that after a couple failures, seem to do the job when guy wires are attached.  I have 2 matrixes and 1 Star mounted at various places on the roof I have included a video too you can see the matrix to the left of the large tree. It looks far better in the video than in real life with gifs.

Steve

https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B145Uzl7VCGygS 

[Box on Rails]

On 8/18/2023 at 10:34 AM, k6ccc said:

OK, now that I am home from the hospital (knee replacement surgery - it went well so far) and able to get onto a computer...

If you really want to get serious, think about going to P10 or even P5 panels.  Your 4 foot high by 5 foot wide in P10 panels 5 panels wide and 8 panels high or 160 pixels wide by 128 pixel high for a total of 20,480 pixels.  If you went with P5 panels it would double for numbers to 320 x 256 to 81,920 pixels.  P10 panels have pixel spacing at 10 mm and P5 panels space the pixels at 5 mm. 

 

The top one is a 4w x 3h P10 (128 x 48 = 6,144 pixels or 36 DMX universes).

The bottom one is a 3w x 2h P5 (192 x 64 = 12,288 pixels or 72 DMX universes).

 

Jim, I ben meaning to ask you more about the P5/P10 panels. I am in need of reducing the weight of my Matrix set ups. My 100x50 Matrix uses 100, 50 Pixel strings and that weight adds up to heavy. I know a P10 100x50 set up would be smaller then 8 foot by 4 foot but would a 192x64 P10 Panel set up be liter in weight then all those pixels strings plus the frame?  Also, is the P5/P10 panels only controllable by DMX or can I control it with LOR pixie controllers?

[TheDucks]

Funny you should mention Weight. I just assembled a Boscoyo Angel and was amazed how heavy. So I grabbed a string of 100 bullets and but them on a kitchen  scale.

5.5Lbs per 100 (the angel has almost 250).  Jim was mentioning extra wire was not an issue. 250 2" extras has to weigh.

Since the topic is Matrix.. Does anyone make a SMD on light weight boards, panels?  (sealed, of coarse )?

[stevehoyt]

I do not have any spare square pixels to weigh and the LOR site does not list that Info. I found this on the web. So I was guessing about a pound per 50 nodes. So a 50 x 48 matrix might be in the neighborhood of 50 lbs. Heavy but doable. @TheDucks So the LOR ones are actually closer to 2.2 lbs per 50 nodes?

I would also be interested @k6ccc. If you thought there might be a lighter weight version of the P10s that uses LOR protocols that would fit  with my application.

Steve

Smart 12v 50ct Square Nodes Black Wire Ray Wu Connector Regulated

$19.50

Smart 12v 50ct Square Nodes Black Wire Ray Wu Connector Regulated

Operating Weight: 0.982 lbs

Shipping Dimensions: 4.1" × 4.2" × 4.2"

Edited August 21, 2023 by stevehoyt

[TheDucks]

Square can not be placed as close together as bullets. Bullets are 12mm dia and can fit a crate style grid. As close as the grid can support.

Whereas Squares are wider AND have the wires come out the sides.

[stevehoyt]

@MattBrown and all

Referencing matt's comment 

On 8/14/2023 at 11:11 AM, MattBrown said:

SVG files are great when you plan to share your sequence, or when you plan to use the Sketch effect on props that have different pixel resolutions. They scale very well.

When downloading files from SVGREPO in the editor I have an option to select the icon size. It can range from 64 to 256. Given that it may be used on different props is there an "ideal" size I should select.

I am a bit confused about how the PX in the editor translates to pixels if at all. 

Thanks

[stevehoyt]

@k6ccc @Box on Rails

On 8/18/2023 at 10:34 AM, k6ccc said:

f you really want to get serious, think about going to P10 or even P5 panels.  Your 4 foot high by 5 foot wide in P10 panels 5 panels wide and 8 panels high or 160 pixels wide by 128 pixel high for a total of 20,480 pixels.  If you went with P5 panels it would double for numbers to 320 x 256 to 81,920 pixels.  P10 panels have pixel spacing at 10 mm and P5 panels space the pixels at 5 mm.  Here are mine for a comparison:

I am still pondering the right way to go and I have question.

In order to build my new panel, even with sale prices, it will require upwards of $1500. More than that it will require me to manually insert 2400 new nodes into the mesh. I hate the thought of that, and will still end up with one inch spacing.

I did a bit more research and was amazed at the prices on the P5 panels. After seeing some videos on building the enclosures and associated electronics, I was sure it was beyond my abilities. I then found the site below where I can get a prebuilt 9x 9 enclosure for $599. It also only weighs about 35 pounds. 

This has brought me to the point, where I think it would be a mistake, to continue using the 1 inch mesh approach and really should go P5. Perhaps start this year with 2 of these panels get the roof mount right and expand in the future. 

I would appreciate your thoughts, as an expert on P5, if I am headed for trouble or not. I still have to verify if they support LOR in some fashion as they only mention Xlights and having a gigabit connection.

Edit. It looks like it supports FPP so I would have to add an E1.31 connection it seems. I saw another thread Jim where you walked someone through that, so while not easy it looks like it is doable.

Thanks

https://yourpixelstore.com/product/full-build-p5-outdoor-enclosure-3x3-9-panels/

Edited August 25, 2023 by stevehoyt

[MattBrown]

At Christmas Expo this year, Your Pixel Store was running some of the P5/P10 products in their booth with LOR software. We will be posting a document on how to do that soon.

Matt

[MattBrown]

20 hours ago, stevehoyt said:

When downloading files from SVGREPO in the editor I have an option to select the icon size. It can range from 64 to 256. Given that it may be used on different props is there an "ideal" size I should select.

I am a bit confused about how the PX in the editor translates to pixels if at all. 

The icon is not used - so don't worry about its size. The key thing is to download the SVG file, then import that into the Sketch effect.