Bad News or Good News First?.

[CLD Kevin]

Hi all,

Its been a while since I’ve been on here. I checked my PMs a few times, but pretty much took a long break. I haven’t even looked at sequencing and its almost June.

Anyways, I'll start off with the bad. It sadness me to say that last year was pretty much...my LAST year for my display at my home. My HOA imposed new “Holiday Display” rules that pretty much pulled the plug on my display. I live in community of hundreds of homes and only a few (4 or 5) homeowner complained. They didn’t even live on my street which should be the first to complain. So I guess we don’t live in country...or should I say community were words like freedom and democracy means anything. Just takes a few to throw out words like “lawsuit” and they fold their hands. I wish I knew who these people are so I could discuss with them personally. I’m a reasonable person and I believe everyone has a right to their opinion...just as long as I they agree with my ways :-) just kidding.

I’m probably just wasting my breath because honestly...the show got too big and I was looking at moving it out of my residential area and to a location that can handle the crowds. I just don’t like the fact that some board telling me what I can and cannot do at my own home.

So this year may be nothing. Like I said, I haven’t even look at sequencing. Been working on my online store and products which should be up and running soon...hopefully. I’ve had all kinds of supplier problems and I lost my web designer so I’ve been learning how to build my online store myself. Very time consuming.


Well I do have some good news...it can't be all bad. I would like to thank LOR and its staff (especially Dan and Chuck) for making me an Light-O-Rama Partner!!! My online store will carry many LOR products, as well as my own items that I used in my displays. I’m trying to make most of my products Plug-N-Play so no need to built it yourself...for those who want that. Many of you like building it yourself...like me...so I will offer DIY products as well. I’m running behind and a little slow getting things going so please don’t wait on me. You have enough to deal with in preparing for your show. I will keep you posted.

Again, thank you to the community (this one...not my neighborhood, well just the ones who complained) and LOR for all if its support. Hopefully this year something positive will come out of my dilemma and take it up another notch.

Take Care,
Kevin

[james campbell]

I hate to hear that,it is such a shame a certain few can cause so much trouble to get you shut down. Just come back bigger and better when you get a new location

[ScottyMo]

Wow! That sucks Kevin! I was looking forward to see what you had in store this year.

I for one, and I assume many others, soley have you to thank for introducing meus to this hobby. It was after seeing your show on CNN that I started investigating this whole lightshow thing, and have been hooked ever since. My wife, on the other hand, wants to kill you ;-)

Hope you find another venue to keep your lights flashing.



ScottyMo

[miaskiewicz christian]

Sorry for you Kevin but with all the success you had last year, some people around are jealous and that's all...
Sure you'll find a place to put your display on this year.
Hope your on-line store will be a success.

Christian

[Guest guest]

Yes, sorry to hear about that Kevin. I'm sure glad I NO LONGER live in an Gestapo {HOA} run community!

It really is sad when 2 or 3 people can get a display closed down, like some others, your success and having LMFAO do filming in your front yard, probably really pushed the jealousy monster over the top with the ones that did the complaining.

They're just overly upset 'cuz their namby pamby static displays couldn't hold up to what you did, and the recognition you got for it! So they cry foul and get you shut down by having their gestapo leaders impose new restrictions or rules on what you can do.

And I agree, NO ONE should be allowed to tell you how to decorate or how those decorations should operate on YOUR OWN PROPERTY!

[LightsinMaine]

Sorry to hear this Kevin.....just one of the reasons I wouldn't buy into an HOA. I could not take someone telling me what I can and cannot do on my own property. But look forward to seeing what you have in your store!!

[jimswinder]

Sorry to hear you go...

and unfortunatley, this whole country is being run by the minority...

[LORi P]

ScottyMo wrote:

Wow!  That sucks Kevin!  I was looking forward to see what you had in store this year.

I for one, and I assume many others, soley have you to thank for introducing meus to this hobby.  It was after seeing your show on CNN that I started investigating this whole lightshow thing, and have been hooked ever since.  My wife, on the other hand, wants to kill you ;-)

Hope you find another venue to keep your lights flashing.

ScottyMo

Kevin, ScottyMo has been a forum member since January, and his very first post was to say how sorry he was have this to happen to you. I find it very cool that his first post in alomst five months of being a member here, your situation is what finally prompted a post. Just goes to show you what an impact you have had on other people.

I, too, am very sorry that you will be unable to continue the display at your house. But like the others here, I hope that you are able to find another venue that is better equipped to handle the crowds you draw.

I don't even know you at all, but every time you post about LMFAO or the sports team or anyone wanting your talent to be part of what they are doing, I am very proud that one of 'us' is famous.

[WilliamS]

HOA's have no real power in court, FIGHT THOSE BASTARDS. Sorry to here that you wont get to display what caught the attention of millions last year and the years before. I hope you decide to work on it anyways and to heck with them!

[rescue_653]

GoofyGuy wrote:

HOA's have no real power in court, FIGHT THOSE BASTARDS. Sorry to here that you wont get to display what caught the attention of millions last year and the years before. I hope you decide to work on it anyways and to heck with them!

Wrong answer, you sign a contract when living in a HOA they have all legal power over you! Hence why I will never live in a community with a HOA.

[JBullard]

GoofyGuy wrote:

HOA's have no real power in court, FIGHT THOSE BASTARDS. Sorry to here that you wont get to display what caught the attention of millions last year and the years before. I hope you decide to work on it anyways and to heck with them!

I respectfully disagree with your legal advice, unless you would care to cite some on point California court cases as justification for your statement.

[shfr26]

I must agree also, they do have the power to made you abide by their rules. There are several in the area here and have heard of some horror story of people not following the rules.

[jimswinder]

JBullard wrote:

I respectfully disagree with your legal advice, unless you would care to cite some on point California court cases as justification for your statement.

Found this:


Is there a California Supreme Court case on HOA inconsistent application of it's rules, or waiver or estoppel where members are treated differently.

There is such a decision. It is Lamden v. LA JOLLA SHORES, 980 P. 2d 940 - Cal: Supreme Court 1999 where the courts expressly stated that the Association is free to use their own judgment, and as a consequence the courts will generally defer to the opinion of the association. Here is the full opinion below:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=2132651882137812046&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr

There was an opinion in 2008, RITTER v. CHURCHILL CONDO ASSN, 166 Cal.App.4th 103, 82 Cal.Rptr.3d 389, 2008., which limited the scope of Lamden, but it was an Appellate case and never got to the California Supreme Court.


Customer Reply

So there is no estoppel from enforcing the rules inconsistently?

Accepted Answer

No there is not. There was some limitation to Lamden based on certain guidelines, but the case itself was never overturned and is still deemed to be binding and good law.

[WilliamS]

What are the new Holiday Display rules?

They can not hold 1 person accountable and allow others to continue in said act. If they are requesting he does not have display then they have no ground. If they state that he can not have one then they must uphold that across the entire neighborhood as that would be a discriminatory act. If the case is that his was too big for a few people to handle, and Im sure having the place locked down for LMFAO was an issue then the few will not outweigh the masses. Unless they revise that you can not celebrate or display for the entire community, then if in the original contract that he can celebrate holidays with decorations then they have no bearing against him. He has a signed contract with that HOA stating he can. It comes down to how you fight it, complaining will get no one no where, but a good attorney fixes that fast.

If they are using bylaws because of traffic or because people are parking, there isnt much to fight that other than keeping people moving at all times and your display does not comply with that as its a show! You can negotiate with the HOA governing body for times, weekends, and so on for those times that will allow people to stop and enjoy, you will be held accountable for any trashed lawns and such. This will put a kink in the works Im sure as any car without the bar code or your HOA sticker Im sure will be pointed out by the complainers and stated they drove over their mailboxes and urinated in their pools. Old crotchety people will do that.

Just like anything else it requires finesse and mostly permission, just like when they are filming a movie, the speed limit is 60mph but they do 170 on the highway its all about getting the proper ducks in a row. I would start with the next HOA hearing. Let them tell you how you to have your display, then add what you would like and negotiate. They are a business just like the government they just have to feel like they won. Even my HOA got huffy with the crap display as they stated it was causing traffic. As a community with 1000 residents I asked how many more cycles the gate was opened during the season knowing that with Christmas would drive up traffic regardless vs last month Thanksgiving, the number was 131 more cycles over the entire month. I doubt that was for me and they dropped it. Don't let what you have created go down like that. There are many legal ways to fight against it, there are many without legalities to fight it its just a negotiation tactic. Anyone can do a quick search on google to find the horror stories of an HOA, but you can also find the success stories just the same. My sister is an attorney in northern California if you need to I can send her south to you. It comes down to bylaws and how you will comply with them or get around them that makes them happy. I would check your agreement to what kind of fines the can impede against you and what the arbitration for those fines may be. Remember that you are doing this during a season that cars are parked all over the place for one night (trick or treaters) already. Ask for Fridays and Saturdays as they are normally higher traffic anyways. Most of these cases never make it to court as they are settled long before they get there.

As for SpringHill HOA's, were in the retirement capital of the country, and that was an actual statistic in 2005 or 2006 we had more retiree's per square mile than anywhere in the US. As most elderly here are abused and taken advantage of its not a surprise of the stories I have heard. As most of them will abide by anything they are told including outrageous fees. Once again family in the mix helps as both parents soon to be retired but still they are Pasco LEO. Elderly abuse and HOA are constant in the area, and most chalk up to civil cases. Most once again are settled long before they get to courts.

I dont mind taking the fire from the forum on this one. Every mole hill becomes a mountain lately, might as well lace up the hiking boots and hire the Sherpa!



*edit

The important part is that you have to live with these people. Although most HOA governing bodys do not live in the communitys they rein over. The neighbors are the ones you have to deal with year round. This is why you should bring it up at the HOA meeting so everyone has an equal chance to be a voice for or against you. Unfortuantly if they are mostly against you then you are outta luck.

[rescue_653]

Goofy in your next to the last paragraph it seems you are trying to cause trouble for an uncalled for comment. I strongly feel that type of remark was uncalled for in this discussion.

[Guest guest]

GoofyGuy wrote:

Although most HOA governing bodys do not live in the communitys they rein over.

I don't know where you get this from as{bolded statement above}, every HOA neighborhood I ever lived in, the GOVERNING BODIES sure DO LIVE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD! The president of the neighborhood HOA lived 4 houses down from me on the opposite side of the street, my next door neighbor to the right of me was the Secretary and who created the monthly HOA Newsletters, on the next block over was our V.P. of the HOA, every single governing person LIVED in the community.

The folks that DON'T are most often, the HOA lawyers and legal advisors, but those that see to it the HOA rules are followed and abided by, and quite in fact, do live within the same community they oversee. I have never seen this any different, there might be some exception somewhere, but not in any I've ever lived in.

The meetings are done in one of their homes which has always been in the community, I've been to a few from time to time and YES, they CERTAINLY DO HAVE POWER OVER HOMEOWNERS IN THEIR COMMUNITY!

And that power extends to they can put liens on your property for fines and non-compliance of the rules, which, if goes to court WILL be sided on the side of the HOA governing body, sometimes to the point that they can actually take your home and have you removed from the community!

If you have never lived in one, you honestly have no bearing or experience in the area and SHOULD NOT be telling someone that does that they can overturn HOA rules. It IS NOT that simple, HOA contracts are usually very long and define what can/can not be done in your yard, what colors you can paint your home, right down to the type of plants you can place in your yard. The last place I lived was in a HOA, never again, because they have far too many rules and regulations that stifle many things, like how you can decorate for the Holidays and even to the dates when said decorations can be put up!

When I started my Halloween show in 2010, I had to get permission from the HOA to put my decorations out the 3rd to last week of September to get ready for an October 1 display for the entire month of October. I had to send a letter of intent, when I'd start putting up my display, as well as the times and dates when it would be in operation.

If I got a rejection letter on my plans, I'd have to resubmit a new letter of intent with whatever changes they would request of me.

The bylaws for decorating stated for displays like Halloween, should not be put up until the 3rd week of October, 1 week before Halloween was acceptable. I had to submit a detailed letter of why I needed to put my display up earlier and get it ready and that I wanted it to operate the entire month. That first letter of intent was shot down, my next letter I sent I INVITED the HOA moguls over to the house, showed them what I wanted to do by giving them a sample from my workroom I had set up. Once they saw what went into it, and since they had never seen anything like it before, they granted me permission to do the display, but I was limited on how large I coiuld go with it.

So you are so very wrong on your statements above about HOA governing bodies not living in the same community they govern, let alone the bad legal advice you have given. If I hadn't lived in one and had to prepare statements and letters for my Halloween Display, I wouldn't even be typing this response.

But I've been there, and I know what power an HOA has, and what they can do, they also have the right to shut the display down if they feel it is becoming a nuisance, or disruption to the other residents or your neighbors.

And this is why I no longer live in an HOA controlled neighborhood/community!

Although I do have Community Management to abide by in our Manufactured Home Community, since we "rent the lot", but I am not limited as I was in the HOA neighborhoods!

[WilliamS]

Orville wrote:

GoofyGuy wrote:

Although most HOA governing bodys do not live in the communitys they rein over.

I don't know where you get this from as{bolded statement above}, every HOA neighborhood I ever lived in, the GOVERNING BODIES sure DO LIVE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD! The president of the neighborhood HOA lived 4 houses down from me on the opposite side of the street, my next door neighbor to the right of me was the Secretary and who created the monthly HOA Newsletters, on the next block over was our V.P. of the HOA, every single governing person LIVED in the community.

The folks that DON'T are most often, the HOA lawyers and legal advisors, but those that see to it the HOA rules are followed and abided by, and quite in fact, do live within the same community they oversee. I have never seen this any different, there might be some exception somewhere, but not in any I've ever lived in.

The meetings are done in one of their homes which has always been in the community, I've been to a few from time to time and YES, they CERTAINLY DO HAVE POWER OVER HOMEOWNERS IN THEIR COMMUNITY!

And that power extends to they can put liens on your property for fines and non-compliance of the rules, which, if goes to court WILL be sided on the side of the HOA governing body, sometimes to the point that they can actually take your home and have you removed from the community!

If you have never lived in one, you honestly have no bearing or experience in the area and SHOULD NOT be telling someone that does that they can overturn HOA rules. It IS NOT that simple, HOA contracts are usually very long and define what can/can not be done in your yard, what colors you can paint your home, right down to the type of plants you can place in your yard. The last place I lived was in a HOA, never again, because they have far too many rules and regulations that stifle many things, like how you can decorate for the Holidays and even to the dates when said decorations can be put up!

When I started my Halloween show in 2010, I had to get permission from the HOA to put my decorations out the 3rd to last week of September to get ready for an October 1 display for the entire month of October. I had to send a letter of intent, when I'd start putting up my display, as well as the times and dates when it would be in operation.

If I got a rejection letter on my plans, I'd have to resubmit a new letter of intent with whatever changes they would request of me.

The bylaws for decorating stated for displays like Halloween, should not be put up until the 3rd week of October, 1 week before Halloween was acceptable. I had to submit a detailed letter of why I needed to put my display up earlier and get it ready and that I wanted it to operate the entire month. That first letter of intent was shot down, my next letter I sent I INVITED the HOA moguls over to the house, showed them what I wanted to do by giving them a sample from my workroom I had set up. Once they saw what went into it, and since they had never seen anything like it before, they granted me permission to do the display, but I was limited on how large I coiuld go with it.

So you are so very wrong on your statements above about HOA governing bodies not living in the same community they govern, let alone the bad legal advice you have given. If I hadn't lived in one and had to prepare statements and letters for my Halloween Display, I wouldn't even be typing this response.

But I've been there, and I know what power an HOA has, and what they can do, they also have the right to shut the display down if they feel it is becoming a nuisance, or disruption to the other residents or your neighbors.

And this is why I no longer live in an HOA controlled neighborhood/community!

Although I do have Community Management to abide by in our Manufactured Home Community, since we "rent the lot", but I am not limited as I was in the HOA neighborhoods!

Ive lived in a few, none of the main members of the HOA lived in the community, they come to visit for the meetings. Most of the larger HOA communities have multiple communities that they look over. They may have members that live in the community but that is usually the minority depending on the size of the company that runs it. The larger developments that are controlled by HOA's that are not housed internal of the community are builder developed sites. Orville I did say then can fine you. As well stated about decorations so Im not sure where most of your statement is coming from?

Even in your post against mine you stated you need permission even if they tell you no, you will try again. Most of the rules they set upon something like decorations do not apply to those like us who go bigger than most would see is needed to celebrate a holiday. I have no want to go against you guys at all, your all great people here I do think that as a whole this is a great community. This is one thing I have to stand behind. Everyone has their moments here that they are just rambling to create friction. This is not one of those. That was also not directed at you Orville. As your experiences are valid as some communites require all HOA managment to live in the community. The larger ones that are builder controlled do not.

HOA's do not have complete have all legal power over you as stated by someone who was offended by me stated, as your statement is wrong. They have rights to uphold the contract you signed to keep the community in a certain criteria. Argue all you want but its true the do not rein supreme over anyone. Everyone has rights its a matter of if you choose to fight for them.

Orville you then know first hand how silly or outrageous the "laws" can be, some HOA's even take away certain constitutional rights here in Florida. Those simply can not be upheld by any HOA governing body. They are in there in hopes that they are followed and they can threaten you. Once again legally they have no leg to stand on.

Simple point is that Kevins display should not go down because of a complaint. He should if he chooses to at the next HOA meeting setup some rules that the HOA thinks they have won against him but still allows him to do what we all love. Not trying to be offensive but simply why lay down when I know this can be done. If you don't live in an HOA and have had to fight for something you argument is invalid.

As for horror stories about them, the Internet is full of false info, people finding hands in salad bars, slipping at stores, or being treated a certain way at a store. Most have been found to be false. As someone who has gone toe to toe with an HOA anything is possible if you have the time and the want to make it happen. Ive gone to bat against an HOA more than once, in different communities and haven't lost yet. Ive also gone with the HOA as I don't want my community trashed as anyone who live in an HOA controlled area wants a certain way of life. From streetlamps to people who do not pick up after their animals we all want certain comforts. If you have never attended an HOA meeting it will really wake you up to how crazy people can be. Its not fun to contend with but sometimes it needs to be done. Im planning a trip out that way to visit my sister in North California, we can drive down to lend a hand if needed.

I do not want to see Kevins display go down like this. If he decided it was time to hang it up then so be it, but a few people with concerns about the neighborhood, that needs to be addressed not just fall over for.

[jimswinder]

GoofyGuy wrote:

If he decided it was time to hang it up then so be it, but a few people with concerns about the neighborhood, that needs to be addressed not just fall over for.

Attached files

[Guest guest]

@GoofyGuy, Not trying to be arguementive, just what MY EXPERIENCES have been with a HOA.

And I'm really surprised you've won every time, I've yet to see ANYONE that won with the one we previously lived in.

So you must be the exception to what most have experienced with an HOA ran community.

The community I previously lived in STARTED with a Builders HOA, but once the community was completed, that changed and was turned over to the people that lived in the community. And this was not a small subdivision either, quite large and ran by those that lived within it.

As far as I am aware and remember, the HOA bylaws stated that ANY governing entity over the community HAD to live in the community, if they moved out of the community, which we had some members move due to their job moved out of the area, others just because they didn't like who was the head cheese over it all, so these folks all had to be removed and new members voted in.

Like said, just my experiences. And I know they can take a lien out and evict people from the community and take over the home if the fines pile up and they don't comply, the home we moved out of was my late mother-in-laws and because we don't own it, they tried to put a lien against us {home is reversed mortgaged} for the lawn and other violations that are occuring, like non-payment of HOA fees, they have sent us letters stating they will take the home if these fees are not paid, {they don't even come in under our name, but my late mother in laws}, so they can't do anything to us, but they don't have any power over us because we never took possession of the home.

But I know they can do it and have seen it done to others in the community because they refused to follow the "rules", such as they are.

Again, MY experiences, others, like yourself may have been lucky enough not to have done this, and it amazes me that you've been able to "win" everytime with yours. Most folks I know have most often than not, lost their case when they confronted the HOA about something they didn't like or think was fair.



EDIT: I have a friend that owns several condos here in Florida, his experiences have been pretty much the same as mine. And his CHOA governing body lives on the property. Now whether or not that is true, I don't know, I don't live there and can only go by what he has told me about his run ins with his local CHOA residents of the community.


I think we've hijacked this thread enough, time to get it back on topic.

If Kevin opts to fight it, his perogative, if not, and he opts to move his display to a more open and friendlier environement, that would be great too. Just as long as he is still able to do what he loves to do and get that WOW factor so many of us love to watch.

[WilliamS]

Orville wrote:

@GoofyGuy, Not trying to be arguementive, just what MY EXPERIENCES have been with a HOA.

And I'm really surprised you've won every time, I've yet to see ANYONE that won with the one we previously lived in.

So you must be the exception to what most have experienced with an HOA ran community.

The community I previously lived in STARTED with a Builders HOA, but once the community was completed, that changed and was turned over to the people that lived in the community. And this was not a small subdivision either, quite large and ran by those that lived within it.

As far as I am aware and remember, the HOA bylaws stated that ANY governing entity over the community HAD to live in the community, if they moved out of the community, which we had some members move due to their job moved out of the area, others just because they didn't like who was the head cheese over it all, so these folks all had to be removed and new members voted in.

Like said, just my experiences. And I know they can take a lien out and evict people from the community and take over the home if the fines pile up and they don't comply, the home we moved out of was my late mother-in-laws and because we don't own it, they tried to put a lien against us {home is reversed mortgaged} for the lawn and other violations that are occuring, like non-payment of HOA fees, they have sent us letters stating they will take the home if these fees are not paid, {they don't even come in under our name, but my late mother in laws}, so they can't do anything to us, but they don't have any power over us because we never took possession of the home.

But I know they can do it and have seen it done to others in the community because they refused to follow the "rules", such as they are.

Again, MY experiences, others, like yourself may have been lucky enough not to have done this, and it amazes me that you've been able to "win" everytime with yours. Most folks I know have most often than not, lost their case when they confronted the HOA about something they didn't like or think was fair.



EDIT: I have a friend that owns several condos here in Florida, his experiences have been pretty much the same as mine. And his CHOA governing body lives on the property. Now whether or not that is true, I don't know, I don't live there and can only go by what he has told me about his run ins with his local CHOA residents of the community.


I think we've hijacked this thread enough, time to get it back on topic.

If Kevin opts to fight it, his perogative, if not, and he opts to move his display to a more open and friendlier environement, that would be great too. Just as long as he is still able to do what he loves to do and get that WOW factor so many of us love to watch.

To win is to pick your fights correctly. If they told me I had to keep my bushes down to 4 foot instead of 5 foot I would just comply as its a bush. I had a tree I wanted removed and they stated for the balance of the structure (10 unit townhouse) it must remain. The fight began, a few allergy medications and a picutre of a bee hive it was gone. I wont fight door colors, or grass types its useless they will win. This is the last I will post on that pointm because you are correct thread jack over.

I just want to see Kevins display again. In fact I emailed him in January if he will run a display one time for me for my sisters birthday in October, just once and just for me in the middle of the night for all I cared. His display got me into this on youtube, I do not want to out last my inspiration for animated lighting!