Can't control my CTB16PCg3, but can connect, current show still running

[MakeItGlow]

Hey folks!
I have a CTB16PCg3 controlling a giant neon sign. I can not access the controller while it is on because it's installed inside the sign, and running a show, meaning I would be surrounded by extremely high voltage. This was installed well before I started working here, and the folks who knew about it aren't around any more.

I can connect to the controller with a network cable, the Hardware program can see the controller, and tells me it's unit ID is 01 and gives me the device name. I can (and have) updated the firmware, and the sign wasn't running a show as it was uploading. Unit 01, channels 1-12 are being used, that is how I have my preview set up.

In the Hardware program though I can not test the lights. Running the Sequencer with the Control Panel open I can click Control Lights, but I don't see anything happening. With just the Control Panel open, I go to the Test Lights tab, but nothing happens. The sign continues to play its programmed show during all of this. 

 

Is there a step I am missing? I can't see any status LEDs, because I prefer that my heart keeps beating. 

Edit: not the exact same thing, but I am able to control a Pixie2D controller with some LED lights via the Hardware program with no issue. So I know how to do that.

Edited March 4, 2023 by MakeItGlow

[dgrant]

Welcome to our forum! We will strive to assist you. I see you are using S6 which of course is good. Did you license it properly? In other words, does it say "Demo" at the top bar? If so, you need to go to the settings and input your email address and partial license to make it run. It will no longer say "Demo". Did you launch the HW utility from inside S6? The software hands off the control to the HW when done properly. So in the HW, when you manually turn on ID 01, Ch 01, nothing comes on at all? I'm wondering if the installers, forgot to plug in both power cables to the controller. Next on the agenda is just how much power did you expect to draw from this controller on each channel with neon lights? Each channel is limited by a 4Amp fuse if memory serves correct. Anything above that will just pop the fuses and things will remain dark. If you put your location on your profile, someone local to you might be able to assist.

Edited March 5, 2023 by dgrant

[dgrant]

I see I didn't read far enough into your post. Sorry. Obviously you have it running something. I truly don't remember at this moment if that model has he capability to run its own background program or not. Some of the professional level models do have this limited capability. Are the commands that you see running, coming from the LOR controller or something else?  Obviously you did license it otherwise the Pixie wouldn't work.

[k6ccc]

As I understand what he is saying, the CTB16 has a stored sequence and on that device it will play it whenever the controller is powered.  To be honest, I have no idea how that situation play out when you try to control it via the hardware utility.  Off hand, I would GUESS that the stored sequence takes priority - but I have no idea.  I have only one loaded a sequence onto a controller.  That was a CMB16D and it was over a decade ago.  I have no other recollection about that test.....

 

[TheDucks]

Standalone the network is always Regular in the sequence. The LOR ID is the same either way.

The controller might really be on AuxB

Also is the Pixie and the CTB on the same network cable?

IN HU on the Standalone form, there is Test Lights in the lower right

[MakeItGlow]

5 hours ago, TheDucks said:

Standalone the network is always Regular in the sequence. The LOR ID is the same either way.

The controller might really be on AuxB

Also is the Pixie and the CTB on the same network cable?

IN HU on the Standalone form, there is Test Lights in the lower right

Is there a way to check if it's on AuxB?

 

This controller was the first LoR item the company every installed, so I doubt it was changed off of anything native. The Hardware Utility identified the controller as 01. And as I said I was able to communicate enough to update the firmware.

 

For the Pixie that was a unit I had in the shop. I attached it to my laptop using the same cables as the CTB just to make sure there wasn't something I was missing. I was able to control the Pixie and it showed the lights as pixel lights, while the HU showed the CTB as 12 channel strings. 

 

Launched the HU while connected to the sign, clicked Test Lights, didn't do anything, show kept running the entire time.

 

I also don't have access to the program, and this was installed quite a long time ago.

 

@k6ccc; any thoughts on how to override priority? Seems that should be default that plugging it in should supercede. That's how it worked on other LOR controllers I have used and programmed. 

 

I'm considering resetting the controller and wiping the show, but I have to be SUPER confident I can then load another show onto it. It's our giant Casino sign for the amusement park's main arcade, and I'd be in trouble if that sign was off for the night.

Edited March 6, 2023 by MakeItGlow
Clarifying which controller I was referring to

[TheDucks]

Look at you Sequence assignments (preview)

Note: you need 2 different versions of it if you run Stand alone and on a Network with multiple dongles. The SA is Regular, the network is which ever it is connected to,

💡 I label my adapters R, A, B, C, so they always get setup for the correct set of controllers

[MakeItGlow]

7 minutes ago, TheDucks said:

Look at you Sequence assignments (preview)

Note: you need 2 different versions of it if you run Stand alone and on a Network with multiple dongles. The SA is Regular, the network is which ever it is connected to,

💡 I label my adapters R, A, B, C, so they always get setup for the correct set of controllers

Sorry I'm confused what you are suggesting I do. I can look at my Preview but don't know what you are saying I need to check. 

 

Stand Alone vs Multiple Dongles; can you tell me what that means? 

 

I believe I am doing SA as I am trying to load the show directly onto a controller. My previous experience with this style of controller is using some brain that has an SD card and is connected to multiple controllers. But I've also directly connected to a Pixie and have controlled the lights.

[k6ccc]

15 hours ago, MakeItGlow said:

any thoughts on how to override priority? Seems that should be default that plugging it in should supercede. That's how it worked on other LOR controllers I have used and programmed. 

No idea.  Read the docs.  I loaded a stand alone sequence one time over a decade ago just to try it.  Unloaded it 15 minutes later.

 

[Orville]

When I tried playing around with a Stand-Alone sequence in a controller, like Jim, it's been quite a while, I seem to recall once an SA is entered and runs anytime the controller is powered, there is absolutely NO WAY to control lights from the HU WITHOUT first wiping out the SA Sequence from the controllers' memory.  And as far as I can recollect, if you don't have the original SA sequence that was created for the sign, there is no way to retrieve or save that SA sequence from the controller, once wiped, it's gone until it is reloaded again.

Once the SA is cleared from the controller, then and only then will you be able to control the lights attached to it, because as long as the controller has power and the SA runs when powered, the SAS has FULL CONTROL of the controller and supersedes any other commands coming in from the SE or the HU.

So, if you want to control the lights in the sign manually, you'll need to wipe the SAS out of the controllers' memory, then you should be able to control the lights in the neon sign.

I remember I couldn't control anything on a controller that had a SAS programmed in it until I deleted it from the controller, then I could test lights in the HU or run a sequence from the SE that would control the lights attached, otherwise, if the SAS was still installed, the SAS did take full precedence and control of the controller while powered on.  The HU will still read it, never tried updating any FW, but I would think if it's running an SAS, a FW update wouldn't be possible either, as that would show the controller as "busy" and wouldn't allow it, but I can't say for sure about that, as I never tried that option when I updated FW in my controllers, not while an SAS was running in it.

[k6ccc]

That's kind of my memory as well - but it's vague enough that I would not bet on it.

 

[Orville]

7 minutes ago, k6ccc said:

That's kind of my memory as well - but it's vague enough that I would not bet on it.

 

Well, if we're incorrect on any of it, I'm sure someone from the actual LOR folks that make these things will surely inform of us of any errors we made. ;)

But like you, it's been a while, and this is how I recall how it worked when I was testing it out for some landscape lighting effects, like you, I deleted it from the controller as it wouldn't really suffice for my use.  But I think I played around with it for about an hour or two before coming to that conclusion.

[dgrant]

I looked at the current documentation on LOR for that controller but it says nothing about a SA sequence capability. I know the older and current 1802's and similar have it but nothing states the CTB16PC3 can do it.

[TheDucks]

1 hour ago, dgrant said:

I looked at the current documentation on LOR for that controller but it says nothing about a SA sequence capability. I know the older and current 1802's and similar have it but nothing states the CTB16PC3 can do it.

Yes it can, but it is command count limited. If it is being used with a Pixie, I would use that as the SA controller. ID's cant overlap, but can be any Valid for your license level.

💡 When you indicate which SA host ID, the file  box shows how many instructions it will accept  (I believe this is also coded in the devicefile.txt)

[dgrant]

I've not messed with SA either in forever or close to it. I'm wondering if it'll allow downloading of the programming within so he doesn't lose it?

[TheDucks]

27 minutes ago, dgrant said:

I've not messed with SA either in forever or close to it. I'm wondering if it'll allow downloading of the programming within so he doesn't lose it?

No , only Download TO or Delete (from controller). The only description I found (never found it in S4. Lots of T&E ) about SA is in the S6 Help

SA would be a great Zoomroom topic early in the season

[dgrant]

Best advice I have for the OP would be to get another controller, program it the way you wish or use the software to control it, then swap out with the original. This would allow you to maintain the existing programming as a backup, while you create the new version. Then swap back as needed. Now comes a thought...just a thought, could we/he connect two sets of output AC cords together in parallel as such to the lights. Both controllers have two different ID addresses and both are daisy-chained together. If the parallel AC outputs will work, then this would allow him to run either one of the controllers, but not both. Obviously the AC input to the not-in-use controller would have to be disconnected first, before powering on the other. What I don't know is if it would fry the mosfets of the powered off controller. Could put diodes into the output connections...

[MakeItGlow]

Alright, so what I am gleaning from this:

-The controller is in Stand Alone mode, as it has a program loaded on to it rather than network controlled.

-I can not control the lights with a show on the controller due to SA.

-To control, test, and then add a new show I would need to reset the board completely.

 

I am just going to have to be super confident in the shows I have made.

 

@dgrant I am not to concerned about preserving the old show, the reason I am making a new show is that the old one is pretty crappy, and our GM actually wants it changed. I do find the idea of two controllers daisy chained interesting, but I do not have the space for it. I am also wired via spade connectors, so swapping boards or connections would be a pain and possibly screw up things if I forget what goes where.

[dgrant]

Just get the preview to look exactly the way you wish it to appear, then make the changes by erasing the SA and using the new. You should probably video your current/old one so you can re-create it if needed. From there, you can change things up on the display to make it say or do whatever you wish.

Edit: Let me add, you can create a show or shows as you wish to change the programming based on time or even user commands to show different things. For a simple example I just thought of, lets say its a menu at a eating establishment within the area. At the push of a button, a user can select the first page, 2nd and etc... or you can have it go through them on its own. During the open time, you can have it change automatically from a breakfast menu to lunch, then dinner at the appointed times. S6 gives you lots of control over the shows/sequences you select. I wouldn't recommend using Neon lights for this rather intelligent LED's and the appropriate controller but I think you get the idea.

Edited March 7, 2023 by dgrant

[TheDucks]

1 hour ago, MakeItGlow said:

Alright, so what I am gleaning from this:

-The controller is in Stand Alone mode, as it has a program loaded on to it rather than network controlled.

-I can not control the lights with a show on the controller due to SA.

-To control, test, and then add a new show I would need to reset the board completely.

 

I am just going to have to be super confident in the shows I have made.

 

@dgrant I am not to concerned about preserving the old show, the reason I am making a new show is that the old one is pretty crappy, and our GM actually wants it changed. I do find the idea of two controllers daisy chained interesting, but I do not have the space for it. I am also wired via spade connectors, so swapping boards or connections would be a pain and possibly screw up things if I forget what goes where.

To me, Reset completely means a Factory Reset. 

All you need to do is delete the SA sequence using the button in HU where you Uploaded in the first place.  (none of my manuals have that screen, so not able to reference )

This leave all the other settings intact (more important for controllers that do not have switches or Sw1 is OFF).