I love LOR...but

[Amie]

I hate how the Channel Configurations are handled. I seriously don't think I could over exagerate how much I hate how this features has been designed. Unless something has changed that I don't know about, this is the one feature that frustrates the hell out of me year after year. I know, report it on the wish list, but I have, 4 years in a row. Last year I submitted code recommendations but obviously nothing happened.

Argh!

If anyone out there has written a patch or a program to work with the .lcc file, would you be willing to share or help me write my own? Something needs to be written so it's easier to read a new .lcc file into a sequence without having to reorganize everything over and over again until you get it right. And if you make a change in one sequence to the channel config file, you shouldn't have to edit all of your sequences and reload the .lcc file for each sequence and resave it. Drives me crazy...too much time wasted.

The .lcc file should not be hardcoded into the sequences and the channels should not be transferred from the names of the channels to arbitrary numbers within the .lcc file. They should stay as names so it doesn't matter what order you have them in inside your sequence files. If it was done differently, you could move your channels around, even add new channels in the middle of a track and not worry about affecting the channel configuration. Wouldn't THAT be sweet!

I honestly hope that LOR engineers spend some time on this someday. Some of the features they have added the past two year are fun but I certainly could live without them in exchange for an easier way to work with the Channel Configurations.


Amie

p.s. to all of the LOR engineers that read this, don't take this personally, I'm just frustrated and needed to rant.

[Victory402]

It's ok to vent and I understand your frustration. The software will get better and more user friendly in time.

[Don]

[This is text from a post a made a week or so ago.]

----------------------

I could write a really long post on this (and may do so one day) but for now pardon the shortness.

1) Open last years sequence. (One with 32 channels from last year.)
2) Add new channels/controllers to BOTTOM of sequence. Do not move any channels.
3) Assign/Name the new channels.
4) Edit -> Duplicate Track. Name it "Working Track"
5) Change to working track.
6) Now, click/drag channels into the order you want. Do not simply rename channels, but click/drag to re-arrange. [That's important.]
7) "Edit -> Export/Import Configuration -> Export" and save to a file.

Now when you import into another sequence from last year you will "Import" the LCC file created in step 7 above. Your events should now be associated with the correct channels.

Why? The LOR software keeps track of the channels internally, via a method not shown to you on the front-end of the software. When you rename a channel, the actual internal association does not change. (Bob can explain this much better than I.)

When you create a second track, you are visually making a second copy, but internally the events are only stored once. This is why when you import the sequences from last year, everything is in the right place. With the steps above you don't change the internal associations.

Note that you will want to work within the "Working Track" from here on out. Do not make changes to your "Default" track. (Which you can rename by clicking the "Track" button in the toolbar. It's near the "Timings" button.)

There's a lot more I could talk about, but this should get you going, and keep your events on the right channels.

----------------------

With the above method you can make changes to your channel configuration, and not have it adversely affect your current sequences. It does require planning and initial setup, but it does work.

[ItsMeBobO]

Wow I can feel the pain. A separate config file would be great and is something I also have asked for. But there are still ways to make the best of it that are not too hard while wondering if LOR has a plan for this. Other posts have mentioned this I am sure. But here I will put it into my own way of saying it.

First be sure you are using and getting the most out of tracks.

Your first track should be your 'all channels' track that has everything in it. No particular order is needed. <-Important to repeat. No particular order. Later after you are all set up this track is normally hidden and not used at all.

Then you should have a track for each logical grouping of channels. A set of mini-trees should get a track and a single CCR should have a track of its own.

Note that tracks are repeats of the channels in the All channels track. When you add an event to a channel, you see the change to that channel in all other tracks. LOR does not require that all channels be duplicated this way but I cant figure out a reason why. You can create multiple views of the channels to suit your needs. In addition to all 50rgb channels for a CCR, I also have a track with just 5 rbgs for when I use resolution 10, and also a macro effects track. This year my config has 22 tracks.

Arranging the 'all channels' track at the top allows you to add additional controller channels to the bottom of that track without messing anything else up in the other tracks. Then you copy (duplicate) the channels into the other tracks where you are grouping them. Its no problem to add 1 here and there or put all the new channels into a single new track.

You should not rearrange the order of the channels in the 'all channels' track. Doing so works fine within the sequence you are working on at the moment. However, when you try to export and import to an existing sequence.. all your timings are now on the wrong channels. Instead, leave the 'all channels' track in the same order but change the channel assignments. The other tracks channels change with it since its just another view of the same channels. Now when you export and import it all works. The existing timings stay with the channels AND the channel numbers change as you wish. New tracks can be added or removed without consequence as long as the first all channels is not rearranged.

When you are all set, the first thing I do when I open a sequence is hide the 'all channels' track since SE does not remember this and other commonly repeated settings.

[Amie]

Thanks everyone, I'm glad I didn't offend anyone. You have found a way to keep that first track a complete mess, but then make a new carbon copy of it every year and rearrange it so you can work with it...right? That is the only method suggested that I haven't tried, I'll give it a shot.

All of your suggestions just tells me that everyone spends too much time on this to figure out a work-around. I think I spend more time messing with this than I do actually writing sequences every year. I think Don's method will help though.

The other issue that I don't think can be solved with any of these methods is converting someone elses sequence into your own Configuration File. If someone shares a sequence with me, I go through their sequence, rename all of the channels that match up to my channel names and then create a track 1 that looks just like mine. Then I can convert it over. It would be a lot easier if I could just write a spreadsheet that indicated which channels were getting renamed and what their new name was.

OH well. Thanks everyone.

[rgardner518]

ItsMeBobO wrote:

Wow I can feel the pain. A separate config file would be great and is something I also have asked for. But there are still ways to make the best of it that are not too hard while wondering if LOR has a plan for this. Other posts have mentioned this I am sure. But here I will put it into my own way of saying it.

First be sure you are using and getting the most out of tracks.

Your first track should be your 'all channels' track that has everything in it. No particular order is needed. <-Important to repeat. No particular order. Later after you are all set up this track is normally hidden and not used at all.

Then you should have a track for each logical grouping of channels. A set of mini-trees should get a track and a single CCR should have a track of its own.

Note that tracks are repeats of the channels in the All channels track. When you add an event to a channel, you see the change to that channel in all other tracks. LOR does not require that all channels be duplicated this way but I cant figure out a reason why. You can create multiple views of the channels to suit your needs. In addition to all 50rgb channels for a CCR, I also have a track with just 5 rbgs for when I use resolution 10, and also a macro effects track. This year my config has 22 tracks.

Arranging the 'all channels' track at the top allows you to add additional controller channels to the bottom of that track without messing anything else up in the other tracks. Then you copy (duplicate) the channels into the other tracks where you are grouping them. Its no problem to add 1 here and there or put all the new channels into a single new track.

You should not rearrange the order of the channels in the 'all channels' track. Doing so works fine within the sequence you are working on at the moment. However, when you try to export and import to an existing sequence.. all your timings are now on the wrong channels. Instead, leave the 'all channels' track in the same order but change the channel assignments. The other tracks channels change with it since its just another view of the same channels. Now when you export and import it all works. The existing timings stay with the channels AND the channel numbers change as you wish. New tracks can be added or removed without consequence as long as the first all channels is not rearranged.

When you are all set, the first thing I do when I open a sequence is hide the 'all channels' track since SE does not remember this and other commonly repeated settings.

I understand what your saying kind-of, but I need to learn more about the tracks!

[Amie]

Oh great, duplicating a track puts the new track at the very bottom of all of the other 16 tracks. Anyone have an easier way to move a track up to the 2nd position? And yes, already submitted that Wish Item earlier this year. ;-)

[ItsMeBobO]

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/en/details.aspx?familyid=72d6aa49-787d-4118-ba5f-4f30fe913628&displaylang=en

Lets you move nodes around fast. SAVE a copy first!

[scubado]

I'm soooo confused! I think I get the idea. I added a controller to my setup and did't setup my sequences in a smart way and screwed things up for myself. I've got it somewhat fixed. After this season I will probably start over, my setup next year will have some major changes, more of everything! Also need to get my permanent wires more organized.

[webbie]

Works great for me dan!

No programming problems here :dude:

[iresq]

With the current software, I find Don's method to be the best. It's very easy to set up and works great.

[NoLor]

Well, I've only been using LOR for a couple days or so, and I'm already quite a frustrated customer!

Here's my current list of frustrations.

*) The channel mappings definitely should not be hard coded into the sequences as they appear to be now. These should be kept in a separate database and dynamically read in when the sequence is used or edited.

*) The licensing situation really stinks. The license server was apparently down over the weekend so I couldn't use my software. Had I been a commercial customer with a crashed computer and had to run out and buy a new one and get running quickly for a job, I really would have been pissed! In no uncertain terms should a company leave it's customers hanging all weekend on a licensing issue. At a minimum, the software should have full functionality for 7 days on first install.

*) The GUI editor needs some basic changes. For example:
*) Why do I need to go into a menu and select a play range, and then have to go back into that menu and unselect it again when I'm done with it? If I have a selection selected and hit Play, play that selection. If I click on the time line and I hit play, start playing from that point forward. This is how even the simplest of audio software that I've ever used works, and it works great. LOR makes this very cumbersome.
*) Why do I have to select the effect I want, then make my selection? If I have something selected and I click on an effect, make the selection that effect! Right now if I want to try out various effects, I have to keep re-selecting the same selection over and over!
*) There's an "all off" button, where's the "all on" button?

*) I don't understand (other than to get more money out of me) the purpose of limiting LORs channels and some of the basic features. I would think startup/shutdown/back ground tasks would be part of any basic show. Why should I need to cough up extra cash just to put on a basic show? The same goes with channel limitations. I already purchased your hardware, why should I need to cough up extra cash for the software each time I plunk down for more of your hardware? I can understand charging for extra advanced features like Beat Detector that probably take a lot of extra work, but charging more for extra channels to use hardware I've already bought from you seems a little well, rotten.

[Don]

A few things....

Keyboard shortcuts can save you an amazing amount of time. For example, "Delete" is all off, "n" is all on. (All being the range that you've selected, of course.)

If you hit the space bar, the software will begin playing from that location. No need to go and mess with the menu settings. (Can't tell you the last time I did, either.)

A full disclaimer in that I would make the following statement even if I were not a LOR Partner. Back in the old days (about 3 years ago) there was 1 version of software. That's it. You paid full price for it whether you needed all the features or not. 5 years ago I paid full price for the software, which is now the advanced version.

Having the ability to use some of the most basic features of the software at a lower cost is wonderful for those who don't need much. The way LOR's site is set up today, even going the upgrade path you will *not* pay more than the regular full price for the software. So, if you started at the basic level, and worked you way up to advanced, you will still pay the regular advanced price.

[PaulXmas]

VirtualXmas wrote:

Well, I've only been using LOR for a couple days or so, and I'm already quite a frustrated customer!

Here's my current list of frustrations.


*) I don't understand (other than to get more money out of me) the purpose of limiting LORs channels and some of the basic features. I would think startup/shutdown/back ground tasks would be part of any basic show. Why should I need to cough up extra cash just to put on a basic show? The same goes with channel limitations. I already purchased your hardware, why should I need to cough up extra cash for the software each time I plunk down for more of your hardware? I can understand charging for extra advanced features like Beat Detector that probably take a lot of extra work, but charging more for extra channels to use hardware I've already bought from you seems a little well, rotten.

Then they should charge EVERYONE for a advanced version of the software?

You bought the $140 version. I am glad they gave me a cheaper option.

I think the software is priced fairly and don't think it should change. Last year I had the basic Plus and this year I gladly paid for the upgrade.

I for one think the software is second ot none.

[NoLor]

PaulXmas wrote:

Then they should charge EVERYONE for a advanced version of the software?

You bought the $140 version. I am glad they gave me a cheaper option.

I think the software is priced fairly and don't think it should change. Last year I had the basic Plus and this year I gladly paid for the upgrade.

I for one think the software is second ot none.

Thank you for taking the time to carefully digest my post before replying. :?

I never said, or implied any of that.

I'll take it you don't know much about software development.

Some features that they restrict are extremely easy to implement. For example, the startup and shutdown tasks probably took 60-120 minutes to code, yet, it's an "advanced" feature.

It costs the same amount to develop the software whether or not you run 1, 10,100, or even 100 million channels. The channel restriction is completely artificial, designed simply to get you to part with more of your cash.

I have no issues with paying more money for features that actually provide significant value, and where difficult to develop and code, such as the Beat Detector likely was. But completely artificial limitations such as the channel limitation and the start/stop tasks that cost virtually nothing to develop, yet seriously impede the usability of the hardware, simply to get you to pay more.

As for the software being second to none, it has some serious user interface usability issues that could be simply fixed. It lacks some basic user interface design that is on even the cheapest (ie included for free with many sound cards) MP3 editing software.

[NoLor]

Don wrote:

A few things....

Keyboard shortcuts can save you an amazing amount of time. For example, "Delete" is all off, "n" is all on. (All being the range that you've selected, of course.)

If you hit the space bar, the software will begin playing from that location. No need to go and mess with the menu settings. (Can't tell you the last time I did, either.)

A full disclaimer in that I would make the following statement even if I were not a LOR Partner. Back in the old days (about 3 years ago) there was 1 version of software. That's it. You paid full price for it whether you needed all the features or not. 5 years ago I paid full price for the software, which is now the advanced version.

Having the ability to use some of the most basic features of the software at a lower cost is wonderful for those who don't need much. The way LOR's site is set up today, even going the upgrade path you will *not* pay more than the regular full price for the software. So, if you started at the basic level, and worked you way up to advanced, you will still pay the regular advanced price.

HI Don,

They are at least fair on their "step up" pricing, and not penalizing you for not buying in all at once. It's just that some of these restrictions are completely artificial, such as the channel limitation, and do nothing except leave me with a bad impression of the company.

Thanks for the tips on the sort cuts. Those will come in handy. Is there a good list of all the short cuts?

[ItsMeBobO]

VirtualXmas wrote:

Why do I have to select the effect I want, then make my selection?  If I have something selected and I click on an effect, make the selection that effect!  Right now if I want to try out various effects, I have to keep re-selecting the same selection over and over!

The tool bar buttons are to select a tool to use, not to apply that tool to the selected area. You CAN apply the effect of the currently selected tool without reselecting the area. Just hit ENTER.

[Don]

VirtualXmas wrote:

HI Don,

They are at least fair on their "step up" pricing, and not penalizing you for not buying in all at once. It's just that some of these restrictions are completely artificial, such as the channel limitation, and do nothing except leave me with a bad impression of the company.

Thanks for the tips on the sort cuts. Those will come in handy. Is there a good list of all the short cuts?

Without going to look ... off the top of my head I'd say they are in the help file. (F1 in sequence editor.)

And, just to play devils advocate, should LOR drop the price of the software and then offer refunds to those who had no choice but to pay full price? Those of us who've been at this since be S2 came out, had to pay full price. Heck, I think our controllers cost more then to.

Yes, it gives some people a bad impression, nobody here here can say anything that will immediately change ones mind. The software, though, is one of the lowest overall costs involved with this hobby. You buy 10 of the PC-CTB16PC-COMPLETE at full price, it's going to set you back $2,000. The software ends up being roughly 6% of that.

[KarlSmith]

Correct me if I'm wrong.
Using a second TRACK I can lay out my channels order based on position in my yard. So a sweep from yard left to yard right will look like a diagonal in sequence editor instead of a mess. And this will NOT mess up whats above in track 1.

[Don]

KarlSmith wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong.
Using a second TRACK I can lay out my channels order based on position in my yard. So a sweep from yard left to yard right will look like a diagonal in sequence editor instead of a mess. And this will NOT mess up whats above in track 1.

Yes. Make sure you _copy_ the channel to a new track. Do not try to re-create the channel manually. Right-Click/Copy Channel will preserve internal workings of the file.