Suggestions for S6 improvements

[Greg Young]

First off, S6 has some great advances, with more I know to come.

I do have a suggestion and an observation:

1) for those of us using video, I think folks know that we need the place the video on the appropriate monitor and then make it full size. That needs to be done in the individual sequence if you want to check that out when testing individual sequences, and more importantly in the control panel so the show player will place it there for your shows. While the sequence video placement needs to be done only once, and is saved going forward, unfortunately that is not the case with the control panel/show player, as I found off when we momentarily lost power the other night. The computer rebooted, the shows resumed, but the video defaulted back to the main pc monitor. Hopefully making it a permanent save can be a quick fix....

2)  The LOR phone app is a great timesaver! I have one issue with my iphone. When I am in the shows and select sequence controls all is there like it is on my pc, except the override sequences option. The header for that is there, but the add button is not visible. It is on the pc, but not the phone. It appears to be a formatting issue. I tried rotating the phone to a horizontal view, but that won't let me scroll below the upcoming sequences option, so that was no help. I am running 6.2.18 with an iphone 11 with the current ios, and curious to see if anyone else has that issue.

Thanks,

Greg 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Greg Young

[k6ccc]

On #2, correct, you can play override sequences, but you need to add them from the show computer.  I am going to assume that this was done as much as any thing due to lack of screen space on a phone.

 

[Jeremiah Ackermann]

1 hour ago, Greg Young said:

1) for those of us using video, I think folks know that we need the place the video on the appropriate monitor and then make it full size. That needs to be done in the individual sequence if you want to check that out when testing individual sequences, and more importantly in the control panel so the show player will place it there for your shows. While the sequence video placement needs to be done only once, and is saved going forward, unfortunately that is not the case with the control panel/show player, as I found off when we momentarily lost power the other night. The computer rebooted, the shows resumed, but the video defaulted back to the main pc monitor. Hopefully making it a permanent save can be a quick fix....

My guess is this may not be a quick fix and the issue is more related to how Microsoft manages app windows when a monitor is not present and/or issues with graphics drivers.

Its been a long standing problem reported with other apps as well. Here are few examples:
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/applications-moving-screens-when-second-monitor-is/4f40933d-60b0-41ad-84c3-df8919576261
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/applications-changing-to-a-different-monitor-when/946cfe51-048b-48b6-be06-153f56a1c670

The long term fix would be trying to bypass what Windows does. However, doing that may cause the opposite issue - windows appearing on non-existent monitors and not having an easy way to move it to a screen you can see.
https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/2349605-windows-displaying-on-non-existent-second-monitor

So Windows is trying to be a good steward of showing windows on existing monitors, its just your secondary monitor may not be immediately there. This is a guess, but I am 99% certain you have the Control Panel set to start automatically when your computer boots. What can happen is Control Panel will startup quickly, before the secondary monitor is even ready, which then forces your video playback window back to your primary monitor. My advice is to not have Control Panel startup automatically, even though it can be convenient.


 

[Jeremiah Ackermann]

If you want to dive into the nitty gritty programming details, my bet is Control Panel is using this method to position the video playback window. 

If the information specified in WINDOWPLACEMENT would result in a window that is completely off the screen, the system will automatically adjust the coordinates so that the window is visible
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/winuser/nf-winuser-setwindowplacement#remarks


 

[Greg Young]

On 12/20/2023 at 3:08 PM, k6ccc said:

On #2, correct, you can play override sequences, but you need to add them from the show computer.  I am going to assume that this was done as much as any thing due to lack of screen space on a phone.

 

Thanks Jim.

I thought it might be related to the limited screen space, but was not sure if it was an iphone specific issue.

[Greg Young]

On 12/20/2023 at 4:42 PM, Jeremiah Ackermann said:

My guess is this may not be a quick fix and the issue is more related to how Microsoft manages app windows when a monitor is not present and/or issues with graphics drivers.....
So Windows is trying to be a good steward of showing windows on existing monitors, its just your secondary monitor may not be immediately there. This is a guess, but I am 99% certain you have the Control Panel set to start automatically when your computer boots. What can happen is Control Panel will startup quickly, before the secondary monitor is even ready, which then forces your video playback window back to your primary monitor. My advice is to not have Control Panel startup automatically, even though it can be convenient.


 

Thanks Jeremiah. 

I gave your suggestion a try tonight after the show ended:

I closed the LOR control panel, but left the pc and monitors running.

When I restarted the control panel, and selected the show on demand option, the video defaulted to the main monitor instead of its assigned one, so that seems to rule out a monitor/windows issue.

I then tried a sequence outside of the show, and found it placed the video on the correct monitor, so it appears to be an issue related to the control panel's show player, unless I am missing something else.

 

[Jimehc]

There are two locations for Video Setting - One in sequencer and the other in Control Panel

[MattBrown]

On 12/20/2023 at 2:08 PM, k6ccc said:

On #2, correct, you can play override sequences, but you need to add them from the show computer.  I am going to assume that this was done as much as any thing due to lack of screen space on a phone.

This was intentionally done for security purposes. There are no functions in the mobile app that allow you to browse through files on your show computer. If an evil person hacked into our cloud service, the worst they could do is mess with your show (play/stop/pause). They would have no access to files on your PC.

[MattBrown]

On 12/20/2023 at 1:46 PM, Greg Young said:

1) for those of us using video, I think folks know that we need the place the video on the appropriate monitor and then make it full size. That needs to be done in the individual sequence if you want to check that out when testing individual sequences, and more importantly in the control panel so the show player will place it there for your shows. While the sequence video placement needs to be done only once, and is saved going forward, unfortunately that is not the case with the control panel/show player, as I found off when we momentarily lost power the other night. The computer rebooted, the shows resumed, but the video defaulted back to the main pc monitor. Hopefully making it a permanent save can be a quick fix....

Thanks for the feedback. We will continue to test this; however, we have not been able to duplicate your experience so far (and we have tried many times).

I have run video in my personal display for many years. I am running 6.2.18 in my show this year and have not had a single problem.  However, I have my show computer set up to duplicate displays instead of extend - so video placement is not a problem.

I did have 1 song that I added this year that used a video with 4K resolution. Decoding the video during playback overtaxed my small display computer and playback to lights was a little choppy. Reformatting the video to 720p completely resolved the issue.

[k6ccc]

18 minutes ago, MattBrown said:

This was intentionally done for security purposes. There are no functions in the mobile app that allow you to browse through files on your show computer. If an evil person hacked into our cloud service, the worst they could do is mess with your show (play/stop/pause). They would have no access to files on your PC.

 

Had not thought about that side of it.  100% agree with that logic.  Thanks for telling us that Matt!

 

[Greg Young]

On 12/22/2023 at 10:53 AM, MattBrown said:

Thanks for the feedback. We will continue to test this; however, we have not been able to duplicate your experience so far (and we have tried many times).

I have run video in my personal display for many years. I am running 6.2.18 in my show this year and have not had a single problem.  However, I have my show computer set up to duplicate displays instead of extend - so video placement is not a problem.

I did have 1 song that I added this year that used a video with 4K resolution. Decoding the video during playback overtaxed my small display computer and playback to lights was a little choppy. Reformatting the video to 720p completely resolved the issue.

That may be my issue Matt, as I run the additional monitors in the extended, not duplicated, mode. I did that to avoid my many icons on my main monitor main screen from being displayed on the other monitor screens, which I got when I tried duplicating screens back when running version 4.

That being said for some reason when playing a sequence with video (using the extended screen option), even after computer shutdown and restart it displays on the monitor I placed it on without any intervention on my part. The control panel player however reverts to the primary screen, so I was curious as to why the difference. 

Given I have a UPS, I turned off windows updates for the month, and left the computer on 24/7 during the season which was my way around it.

Thanks as always,

Greg

 

[Jeremiah Ackermann]

Out of curiosity, I played around with Control Panel and can reproduce the issue quite easily now. TLDR; the window position is never saved after its repositioned. @MattBrown

Here are the repro steps:
1. Assume a show is playing and the video window is displayed. My video settings in CP were set to play in windowed mode (first setting).
2. Reposition the video playback window to a different monitor.
3. DO NOT change any of the video settings or even go to CP settings. As a user, I simply repositioned the window to where I wanted the playback window and never bothered to go to the video settings page. I still wanted windowed mode and simply repositioned the window.
4. Exit control panel (I did it with show still playing) and restart it
5. The video playback window will play where it was playing in step 1.

Note in step 2, I could have decided to maximize the window, but it would have failed as well.  Basically the window size and position is only ever persisted if you change a setting on the video page. And if you don't want full-screen, the only way to make the window placement stick is to change the setting to full screen and then back to windowed mode.

So basically the window size/position changes the user does in step 2 just need to persist without ever going to the CP video settings. Perhaps persist immediately and not on app exit incase the app crashes, is forced closed, etc.

Edited January 4 by Jeremiah Ackermann

[Tim Fischer]

I use a second monitor for my show video, and haven't had any issues with it losing the correct monitor. I restart my computer once or twice during the season out of habit (past versions of LOR required that or the show stopped working properly, and I don't want to find out the hard way this is still an issue lol)

[Tim Fischer]

1 hour ago, Jeremiah Ackermann said:

Out of curiosity, I played around with Control Panel and can reproduce the issue quite easily now. TLDR; the window position is never saved after its repositioned. @MattBrown

Here are the repro steps:
1. Assume a show is playing and the video window is displayed. My video settings in CP were set to play in windowed mode (first setting).
2. Reposition the video playback window to a different monitor.
3. DO NOT change any of the video settings or even go to CP settings. As a user, I simply repositioned the window to where I wanted the playback window and never bothered to go to the video settings page. I still wanted windowed mode and simply repositioned the window.

I don't think this is how it works? You have to select the correct monitor and position through the control panel settings, not just move it while it's playing back.

Just grabbed this screen shot off of my laptop. If you want full screen video, you first select the monitor using the window option, then go back and change it to "full screen".

Has worked for me all season across several reboots as I mentioned above.

 

Edited January 4 by Tim Fischer

[Tim Fischer]

On the subject of the iOS app... I'd say 90+% of the time, when I go back to the app from the background, the app immediately crashes. Then I have to find it again (in Recent Apps or whatever) and relaunch it.

I've already mentioned my desire for groups to be part of the "testing" tab on the phone app.

[Jeremiah Ackermann]

21 minutes ago, Tim Fischer said:

I don't think this is how it works? You have to select the correct monitor and position through the control panel settings, not just move it while it's playing back

That’s the problem, when you move the window to the correct monitor, the position is never saved. The only way to get it to save is toggle to full screen mode and then back to non full screen.

If you use full screen video playback, you will never see the bug, because you are always toggling it to full screen from windowed mode.

But if all you use is windowed mode, you will easily run into the bug. This includes maximized windows which could be confused with full screen.

Edited January 4 by Jeremiah Ackermann

[Tim Fischer]

5 minutes ago, Jeremiah Ackermann said:

That’s the problem, when you move the window to the correct monitor, the position is never saved. The only way to get it to save is toggle to full screen mode and then back to non full screen.

If you use full screen video playback, you will never see the bug, because you are always toggling it to full screen from windowed mode.

 

But if all you use is windowed mode, you will easily run into the bug.

OK that makes sense.

I've never understood why people would want anything but full screen... can you explain your use case?

[Jeremiah Ackermann]

9 minutes ago, Tim Fischer said:

I've never understood why people would want anything but full screen... can you explain your use case?

I don’t use video at all for displays and I agree most would (should) just use full screen. Maybe just not knowing the option exists? 
 

I suppose one may want to show other app windows or it ends up being cropped out further downstream in the video signal.

 

@Greg Young, are you not using the full screen mode for video playback in CP video settings and instead just maximizing the window to make it “full size”?

I am guessing so since I can replicate the issue you describe by doing that.

Edited January 4 by Jeremiah Ackermann

[MattBrown]

4 hours ago, Jeremiah Ackermann said:

Out of curiosity, I played around with Control Panel and can reproduce the issue quite easily now. TLDR; the window position is never saved after its repositioned. @MattBrown

Here are the repro steps:
1. Assume a show is playing and the video window is displayed. My video settings in CP were set to play in windowed mode (first setting).
2. Reposition the video playback window to a different monitor.
3. DO NOT change any of the video settings or even go to CP settings. As a user, I simply repositioned the window to where I wanted the playback window and never bothered to go to the video settings page. I still wanted windowed mode and simply repositioned the window.
4. Exit control panel (I did it with show still playing) and restart it
5. The video playback window will play where it was playing in step 1.

Note in step 2, I could have decided to maximize the window, but it would have failed as well.  Basically the window size and position is only ever persisted if you change a setting on the video page. And if you don't want full-screen, the only way to make the window placement stick is to change the setting to full screen and then back to windowed mode.

So basically the window size/position changes the user does in step 2 just need to persist without ever going to the CP video settings. Perhaps persist immediately and not on app exit incase the app crashes, is forced closed, etc.

Thanks for the test scenario, but it works correctly for me -- in step #5 the video is where I placed it in step #2. I tested on Windows 11 Pro 23H2 with an NVIDIA GTX1050 with version 445.87 drivers.

[Jeremiah Ackermann]

8 hours ago, MattBrown said:

in step #5 the video is where I placed it in step #2. I tested on Windows 11 Pro 23H2 with an NVIDIA GTX1050 with version 445.87 drivers.

So I tried again this morning and can't reproduce anymore either. Now I had done a computer restart since then because I was seeing an issue where any app's maximized windows would show behind the taskbar (basically full screen). I wish I had gotten video, because it happened all the time. So perhaps a bug in Win11 or GPU drivers (AMD RX 580 - 23.11.1 driver)?

However, I can still reproduce issues maximizing the window because C:\Users\%User%\AppData\Local\Light-O-Rama\cp_windows.config doesn't seem to be saving that window state. The main control panel window saves it successfully, but the playback window never does. So maybe related?