S3 Firmware in OLDER controllers

[Guest guest]

Okay let's say when the S3 firmware would get released, will it be usable in ALL previous versions of LOR Controllers?

I have 5 controllers, 4 are newer V2 boards and have the 4.40 firmware installed, one is an older (V1?) board and has 4.32 firmware installed (it can't be upgraded to the 4.40 firmware), so would the OLDEST unit I have be capable of being updated to the S3 firmware once released, or do I relegate it to more non-important aspects of the show?

I think from what I've read the V2 boards are GEN 2 controllers and can be upgraded with the S3 firmware, but I'm just not sure about the older controller.

Also, if you do upgrade your V2/Gen 2 controllers with the new S3 firmware and are not using S3, are there any issues that could arise from installing the latest firmware, even if you aren't using the latest version of the software?

Just want to make sure that if I did upgrade my controllers firmware, they'd still work with S2, so that I don't load something into them that I might not be able to use, until such time that I upgrade to the newer version of the LOR software.

[JBullard]

Maybe it would be better to ask these questions at the time new firmware is actually released.

I have a feeling that at that time these issues would be addressed, just as they have with all previous firmware releases.

[-klb-]

Considering that gen3 firmware is not yet available for gen2 hardware, the questions are too early to get solid answers.

But, i would expect versions for all the PC series controllers, and likely all the 1602 series as well.

Nohing in the new firmware should prevent them from reacting normally to s2, or even 1.6.3. But, you won't be able to tell much about them from the HW utilty older than S3.

[Guest guest]

I just brought it up because normally when new firmware is released I do upgrade all my hardware when it becomes available.

So I just figured it would be prudent to ask in advance, because I know I won't be the only one wanting to know the answers to those questions when the new firmware is released and available.

Hopefully at the time of release, we'll all know what's what.

Just trying to get a feel for things since the firmware may become available prior to my actual renewing my license to the latest software version of the time.

[JeffF]

I'm interested in this too since we have 16 or 17 Gen1 controllers here. I'd be happy sticking with S2 if I must but the tinkerer in me wants to try S3.

[LOR Staff]

Jeffrey wrote:

I'm interested in this too since we have 16 or 17 Gen1 controllers here. I'd be happy sticking with S2 if I must but the tinkerer in me wants to try S3.

If I am not mistaken, S3 will work perfectly fine with your Gen 1's, even with the older firmware.

[-klb-]

As I understand it, S3 works just fine with the firmware you already have. You just don't get the custom dimming curves without the gen3 firmware.

[JeffF]

Ah... good to know. I've been out of it for a while so all this S3 talk has my head spinning. :shock:

[Guest guest]

-klb- wrote:

As I understand it, S3 works just fine with the firmware you already have. You just don't get the custom dimming curves without the gen3 firmware.

I'm curious and probably a little dense on this one. What are custom dimming in S3 that is so different than just a fade up or fade down that is in S2?

I create custom dimming fades in S2 by varying the intensities, so I'm kind of puzzled by what is meant by the S3 custom dimming.

Can you or someone give an example of what and how this custom dimming is done as a side to side comparison to the way S2 does it vs S3?

Maybe Bob has something he can shed light {no pun intended} on with this new custom dimming aspect with a video showing the differences or something between how S2 and S3 handles this.

[DownTown]

From what I understand, the custom dimming profiles will allow you to set up LED strings to dim at the same rate as your incandescents, so that they all fade and go out at the same time.

D.T.

[-klb-]

I don't think there is really any tie between custom curves and the S2 or S3 software. I think if you have a curve programmed into a gen 3 firmware controller, it will get used no matter which package is driving it.

What the curve does is map between lor intensities and when the triacs get triggered. Right now, all channels use a curve that is suited for incandescent lights, where RMS voltage is pretty linear to light output.

But when you use this with LED, odd things may happen. Between 0 and 40 %, your brightness may have only gone up 10%. Then, in the 10% of lor intensity, the LED may gain 40% in brightness, so things match at 50%. Then the next 10% (at 60) the LED may be at 90% already.

You could make all your ramps of multiple segments, to compensate, and allow for a smooth ramp, but it is a pain to use everywhere.

With a custom curve installed in the controller, you can just sequence the straight 0-100 ramp, and when you are 20% through in time, your actual brightness will be 20%.

[Richard Hamilton]

Very nice description from KLB. I can only add...

Being that LEDs are VERY non linear (voltage to brightness), the custom diming curves are really mostly useful for LEDs. Before such a feature, if I wanted my lights to appear at very dim levels between shows or late at night after the shows, I had to set the "percent on" to various values depending on the color of the led strings. Otherwise they appeared at different brightness level when at low intensity. These nice curves take care of all that. And better yet, it makes the show even better (fade on and off).

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the info on the dimming options in the new Gen 3 controllers.

Now I completely understand that as I have to do that with some of my LED's. My Halloween Display uses Pastel Purple (button) and Orange (M5) LED strings and the purples are downright blinding at 100%, dimming them to around 20-30% makes them more uniform to the Orange ones. So this new firmware would really be great to have in any controller. Would make it a lot easier to have all the LED's instensities look the same. If' I'm reading your folks responses correctly!

Maybe if the older controllers can't be upgraded to this firmware, LOR could have some sort of exchange/trade-in program for trading in an older unit for one that has these nice new features with a little upgrade pricing to a Gen 3 controller?

[Guest wbottomley]

Since we're talking about all of this hardware technical stuff... to get to the panel for adjusting those curves are here: http://www.lightorama.com/downloads/3.0.2/help/


Now... it's really hard to find. Go to the hardware utility>configure at the bottom>advance configuration on the bottom right hand side.

[TJ Hvasta]

Didnt Dan say the new LED dimming curves went from 256 steps to 1024?

[Jerry Budelman]

While you're on the topic of LEDs and dimming curves, I thought I would share some on my experince with them. The latest LED strings use a full wave capacitor-input current limit circuit which has the following effects:

No output until you hit at least 10-13% (depends on color).

Very steep increase in output after the threshold; 70% vs. 100% indistinguishable.

Threshold is VERY temperature dependent; Colder temps (like outside) RAISE the threshold, so what was dim inside is now OFF.

If you are OK with hardare modification, puting a resistor in series with (each) LED string goes along way to linearizing the brigtness vs voltage curve and prety much eliminates the temperature sensitivity. A 1-3K resistor, 2 watt is a good starting place, but your mileage may vary....

The resistor reduces the max light output very slightly, but hardly noticable and the power factor is dramatically improved (if you care....)

For what it's worth.

Jerry

[JBullard]

Jerry Budelman wrote:

While you're on the topic of LEDs and dimming curves, I thought I would share some on my experince with them. The latest LED strings use a full wave capacitor-input current limit circuit which has the following effects:

I strongly disagree with the "latest LED strings" statement. None of mine do.

A string with a "capacitor" will be extremly hard to dim. The purpose of the capacitor is to resist any voltage change.

Back in 2008, the factory for one of the LED vendors made a change incorporating a capacitor during the production run.

When trying to dim them, they smoked and some burst into flames. Since I had purchased over a thousand dollars worth and needed them for my display that year, I cut their capacitor rectifier pack off and replaced with my own build of Full Wave Rectification. After the season was over, the vendor allowed us to send them all back, and he replaced with brand new Full Wave strings that did not use a capacitor.

Over the years, I have seen some retail store strings with a capacitor in them, and for grins purchased a few just to watch them self destruct when dimming.

For my part, I only buy LEDs from a vendor that certifies them as having no capacitor and that they are suitable for dimming.

Just my opinion and experience.

[Jerry Budelman]

Gosh,

I guess our experience differs. Most of my LEDs came from Costco and they are 100 LED strings made under the GE label. After cutting one open and analyzing the circuit, I found that the purpose of the capacitor(s) is twofold: one is to implement a voltage doubler so that 50 (white) series LEDs can be driven from a 110 volt circuit (2 LEDS are connected in parallel, thus 100 per string). The second function is to provide a current limiting effect due to its capacitive reactance. If the circuit is balanced (e.g. full wave) then there is no issue with dimming, provided the appropriate non-reactive load has been provided to ensure triac turn-on.

I have also taken these strings apart and installed a full wave rectifer bridge and current limiting resistor as you mentioned, for the same reason, but my latest project used 50 strings of 100 leds and I found the resistor approach as effective and easier.

There may indeed be a variety of circuit implementations out there and no doubt some are subject to catastrophic failure with dimmers. Your advice is very good: test before you buy a large quantity.

Hope this helps, and sorry if I triggered a nerve.

Jerry::

[-klb-]

I think we were all hoping that the voltage doubler implementation for LED strings had died a ugly death when that one manufacturer had so many issues. I personally don't think that having 300VDC in one of my lighting strings is all that great an idea. And, even with adding some in line resistance, I wouldn't think that they would be reliable when dimmed. Even then, you are exposing the capacitors to inrush currents they were not designed for. Most of the big box stores seem to have stayed away from that design the past couple of years. I'm really not happy to see GE bring it back.

[JBullard]

Nerve ? No. Didnt mean for it to sound harsh. Sorry. Yes the best advice is to test, since all LED strings are not equal.

Glad to hear they work well for you