Building a remote network system for LOR

[beeiilll]

I have not had a show since 2014 due to health and other issues (life will do that) but now want to set up a way to control a few Gen 1 and 2 CTK16 controllers from approx. 500 feet away from my house.

I have all LED lights at this point with 22 controllers available to use although I am only looking at using around 100 channels to run a mega tree and a few props at this point.  BUT, I want to be able to integrate pixels into the mix in time as well.  I am still on S4 but can upgrade if need be.  Just that I am familiar with S4 for my old-style LED workings so want to set up a form of network first before jumping into pixels and newer software unless the jump will help now.

My house is around 400 to 500 feet away from the main road where the controllers will be.  I would like to set up something simple to allow my show computer to be connected to some type of network switch and then a receiver out at the controllers if possible.  I have several buildings where I can set up controllers for lighting on each building but am lost on connecting a bunch of controllers in anything other than a wired configuration.

1.  I "assume" that wireless would be easier to set up although I can run network cable out to the area if I have to.  Wired would end up being approx. 600 to 700 feet due to the paths needed to run it.  Also, it would be better if I could have controllers in groups but I can wire them together once I get a central point for data out there if need be.  Just that I have driveways to cross so wired will be a lot of digging if necessary.

2.  I won't have anything on this "network" other than the show computer without internet access so a "closed system" if you will.

So it will be -  Show computer - some type of network switch - wireless/wired path out - another switch or receiver - controllers.  Or am I not understanding this?

I am not up on networking at all other than getting a repeater for my internet connection here at the house and installing it so please be pretty basic with me on this. 

Can one of you folks give me a basic setup idea for such and recommendations for what equipment I will need?  I know this is pretty wide open but I want to make it simple but also with the idea of pixels later on.  I am also considering having some form of landscape lighting on this "system" for off-season use possibly since it would be just a matter of programming once hardware is set.

Thanks in advance and Happy New Year to all.  Looking forward to getting back into sequencing the blink/flashy!

[TheDucks]

A standard LOR RS485 network can be up to 4000' total, so 500' in no issue.  This is NOT Ethernet, so a 'switch is out of the picture' (BTW Ethernet is limited to 305' of CAT5)

Gen1 CTB16 are speed limited (by today's standards) and can't do ELOR mode (or be on the same network with), so no Pixels on that network.

You CAN use a set of ELL (Easy Light linkers) for wireless. But those do not support the speed for Pixels)

They make Direct Burial CAT5 if you want a permanent run, Just don't run it close, along side AC power for more than a few feet. (💡 run a spare or 2 just in case you go smart later)

 

And Happy New Year

[k6ccc]

Making the assumption that this is LOR network - as opposed to E1.31.  Sounds that way from your description, and it looks like TheDucks made the same assumption.

As TheDucks said, less than 1000 feet is not a problem for the RS-485 LOR network.  Since you have Gen 1 controllers, you are limited to 115K speed and not Enhanced LOR.  If you are going to allow for future pixels, I would recommend running cable for two networks.  Yes, you CAN run two LOR networks on one cat-5 cable, but I'm going to recommend that you plan on having a second cable.  If you have a conduit path, it becomes much easier to add something later, but if you bury a cable, bury a second cable on along side the first so you don't have to dig hundreds of feet again in a year or two when you want pixels.  If you direct bury the cable, make sure it is cable meant for direct bury or else it won't last long.  Similarly if you have a route that will have the cable exposed to sunlight, you MUST use outdoor rated cable that is meant to be in sunlight, or again, it won't last more that a year or two.  If the cable will be in conduit, that is not a problem.  BTW, with the longer network length, I would recommend that the network or networks be properly terminated at the end.

If you end up needing to use E1.31 for pixels, you will need at least one network repeater along the path (just takes a simple dumb switch).  But that does mean a location that is weather protected and you will need power - unless you can power it via POE.

[beeiilll]

Thanks for the replies.  So I guess I can figure that I will need to run two runs of Cat 6 out to things.  I have 5 buildings to go to along with a front yard from the house and a sign area.  So I would have to run the Cat cable from the house to the first building, then to the next, and so on ending up in the front yard?  Then use a controller or more in each building to run lights on that building and controllers out on the front lawn using the LOR RS-485 network being that the controllers are daisy-chained together.

Then the second run of Cat cable can be used for pixels later on if needed.

Looks like I will have to do both overhead and buried cable runs to do it since I have to cross driveways in five places although I could do all buried conduit and fittings which would set me back some. Have to think a bit about how I will terminate in the buildings as well as use weatherproof boxes out on the front lawn and the sign.  I also have to run power to the front lawn area which I already have the conduit and wire for.  Just have to dig the trench and put it in.

Probably easier to rent a ditch witch and hire a couple of kids to run it for the trenches around the place.

So I have to figure out the cable runs to go in a line around and then terminate in one spot?  The LOR network doesn't want to have tees in it if I remember correctly. I am not up on the running cat cable to different areas.  Would you make a termination jack in and out at each building or can you tie cat cable together at the jacks so it is one "run"?  I would think that the cable should have an in and out at each location and then use a jumper at the jacks if no controller at that location.  I used to run cat cable in houses back in the day when I was wiring homes and would have a master location in the basement and then out to each room with one or two cables with whatever the homeowner wanted.  I never did the actual network hookup stuff so am lacking on that aspect.  I do remember the RS-485 specs for LOR so guess I am just confused with different terms and network things.

[TheDucks]

Quote

Looks like I will have to do both overhead and buried cable runs to do it since I have to cross driveways in five places although I could do all buried conduit and fittings which would set me back some. Have to think a bit about how I will terminate in the buildings as well as use weatherproof boxes out on the front lawn and the sign.  I also have to run power to the front lawn area which I already have the conduit and wire for.  Just have to dig the trench and put it in.

IMHO use 4 port keystone inserts in junction boxes (in place covers if out doors). https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09DXYH6LG/ref=sspa_dk_detail_1?pd_rd_i=B09DXYH6LG&pd_rd_w=A8Lwc&content-id=amzn1.sym.386c274b-4bfe-4421-9052-a1a56db557ab&pf_rd_p=386c274b-4bfe-4421-9052-a1a56db557ab&pf_rd_r=0QD8EHP3AN3TSSXMTNE4&pd_rd_wg=rAJFt&pd_rd_r=89738ea4-f094-4ad8-bdd3-1670d9935b42&s=hi&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9kZXRhaWxfdGhlbWF0aWM&th=1 If you don't use a drop point (building), just use a 6" patch cord between the in and onward (network pair) I would avoid the 6 hole version, fit issues with many jax, if needed, use a 2 gang box and another 4 port instead. 💡 No reason to do just CAT (at least to/from the building nearest the road. That would be a great place for a FM transmitter. 👍 )

[beeiilll]

The 4 port inserts and jacks are what I was thinking as well.  I have to decide if I want to have the boxes inside or outside the buildings.  Each building has a screened porch which would help with protection for jacks and controllers and would not be a big deal to drill up into for conduit to enter and exit each porch.

I am not considering using my FM transmitter as I now live on a 55 MPH main road that has blind spots a few hundred feet on each side of the front yard!  I certainly don't want to have any accidents because of the lights.  They will be more of a slow-changing static show type rather than synched to music and the off-season use would be for accent lighting on the buildings although I do have an LED programmable sign that I would like to place by the sign for camp and use it for public announcements during the year for the town activities.  I think maybe an audio cable run out to one of the buildings may be wise as a future addition if I want to have announcements in FM along with the LED scrolling sign.  As long as I have to have a trench, might as well install an additional conduit or two with pull lines.

The biggest reason for doing this is to be able to use my mega tree on the front lawn as well as blow molds to make a display for people who drive by to see during the season and maybe for holidays as well.  We were well known for having flamingo displays during the summer on the holidays using around 40 of the Featherstone pink flamingos for things like a baseball game, carwash, Memorial Day parade, and such.  I even built a 12-foot rocket for the 4th of July with Flamingos sitting on it and a "launch crew".  This will allow me to somewhat animate those displays as well.

Things to think about for a couple of months before getting started with digging.  The only tough part will be lots of tree roots on the run from the house up to the front area but I have 6 trees that are too big so need to rip them out anyway.  This will turn into quite the project before it gets done so any insight or helpful ideas are certainly appreciated.

[Steven]

I ran 4" conduit to various places in my front yard, including under sidewalks. It makes it easy to pull new cables if you need to add something new. The problem with direct burial is that eventually a gopher will find it.

[k6ccc]

I don't have 4" conduit, but I do have a quarter mile of various sizes of conduit under my lawn (and it's only about 1000 square feet).  I fully support the concept of using conduit.  Makes changes SO MUCH EASIER!

 

[beeiilll]

The biggest problem with conduit for me is the cost of things at this point.  I am retired and on SS for my income so a large expense of conduit and associated wire and fittings is something that I have to consider.  I may try to do a bit this year and more later on but at 72, it is not the most important thing to have done.

Also, being an electrician for over 40 years has made me anal about my work.  I clean and glue all connections with conduit as well as being careful about termination points being protected from weather and animals.  Takes me longer to do work than others who I have watched just push conduit together without gluing only to have water seep into it in a few years.

Along with the necessary "routes" and driveways that I have to cross, it is going to take a good amount of trenching to get things run.  A lot of work for this old guy but still fun although my body tends to disagree with me on working some days.

I am also looking at running some power lines in places to have control over the power for controllers and some lights.  Which means a wider trench for multiple conduits.

I assume that an audio feed should be in a conduit by itself rather than with the Cat cable but welcome any insight into that aspect, please.  I would run two conduits for Cat cable as long as I have to dig up a lot of areas.  Probably run a 2" since I have over 100 feet of it still from service entrances over the years and maybe another one of 3/4" or 1" as I have some of each of those as well.  I usually run at least two pull lines in the conduit for future use.  Coating pull lines with wire pull compound (light coating) helps a lot for future use as well.

Thanks for the replies and suggestions.  Great bunch of people on here who know LOR and the fun of this hobby.   Happy New Year.

[TheDucks]

4" is a bit large (and pricey). It takes a 1.25 hole to allow a single standard Orange cord plug to pass . Once there is a cord, that is that.

I used a Shop Vac hose (free from a friend) under a small walk (Not Gopher proof) for low power show stuff. I do those in a single pull (Pullcord left in between seasons)

Use CAT6 shielded for the Audio (even better if all in the pipe). Leviton had Keystone RCA or 3,5mm inserts. each channel uses a pair. and that should do for the class 2 data  in a single pipe,as long as the noisy AC is not close.

BTW Lightning protect all data runs. Ground currents are still massive during a nearby (>300' away) strike.

While you are at it. prewire for WIRED security cams (watch the road, watch the props that the are working). USE POE if you can put a POE switch in the last 200' (the NVR does not need to be the POE source. You do not even need a NVR if you just want to view 1 Cam at a time)

[Steven]

My speakers use 70v audio transformers connected to an unused pair on the LOR network cable.

[TheDucks]

5 minutes ago, Steven said:

My speakers use 70v audio transformers connected to an unused pair on the LOR network cable.

I was thinking for the FM, to get the transmitter close to the road like @k6ccc does.

70V is great for (usually large buildings with many) speakers. There is also 24V, just less. I re-did BNR Mtv, using 3 wires (Balances line length, so tap fiddling is reduced) on a 70V system . The 'pros' that installed it originally, so undersized the Amp (I used 2) and used 20ga (2 cond) wire for over 100 ceiling speakers (2 floors).

[k6ccc]

If you are going to run audio hundreds of feet to the transmitter (like I do), you can not simply use a long cable.  An unbalanced audio cable that long will get more noise into it than you can shake a stick at.  Short answer is to run it as a balanced pair for each channel.  Usually that means running the signal through isolation transformers at each end.

 

[beeiilll]

4 hours ago, k6ccc said:

If you are going to run audio hundreds of feet to the transmitter (like I do), you can not simply use a long cable.  An unbalanced audio cable that long will get more noise into it than you can shake a stick at.  Short answer is to run it as a balanced pair for each channel.  Usually that means running the signal through isolation transformers at each end.

 

I am not planning on having audio at this time but am considering what to do if I am going to run so much wire and conduit that maybe a future line(s) may be worth running.  I agree with the need for balanced pair and transformers if I do use it but that would certainly be a future item now.

Or I will have to get a much bigger stick to shake at it!  😁

At this point, it looks like two runs of cat cable (one to RS-485 and one for E.131 and pixels later), another run of cat cable for my scrolling led sign, and possibly a run for audio.

At this point, it is all just thinking and planning what to do if at all.  I like to keep busy but have to watch the cost as well as my health.  I have plenty to keep busy in the summer with 17 cabins to keep up with so this is just a fun project to work on in the winter time while staying indoors.  Not too much to do up here in upstate NY when it gets around zero out!  🥶