WS2811 RGB Spot lights will not work (iffy) on ANY card but works with HU on ANY card

[Obejohnknobe]

SSooo, crazy situation that has me perplexed and need some insight if possible.  I purchased 8 - 10watt WS2811 from Wally's Lights to replace my CMB24 card and RGB spotlights (water damaged).  Programmed  with the HU and had no problems in getting them to work with Hardware Utility.  All lights work on a Pixie 4 using the HU.  When I set up in SE Preview and HU, each port (4 each) has its own Hex number with 2 bulbs (09, 0A, 0B, 0C).  Again, no issue with HU when setting up in HU Pixie config with 10 pixels in pixels per port and 10 in logical resolution as well as setting up with WS2811 and RGB in the config. 

When a test sequence in SE (500K speed) to test all lights using a MP3 director, on port 1, both spot lights work.  Port 2 only pixel 2 works not pixel 1 spot light, neither port 3 or 4 work.  Can switch all ports to port 1 and all spot lights work (1 at a time).  Switched to know good pixie 4 and the same happens.  Switched to know good pixie 8 and still the same.  Reprogrammed all cards in HU pixel config to pixel ports and pixel resolution to 50 and still the same.  Used all cards on pixel strings and all work.

Changed SE preview layout from bulbs to lines unconnected, programmed a test sequence and still the same. 

I am out of ideals.  Help me obe-wan-knobe!!  You are my only hope!!

John

[k6ccc]

I'm not the Pixie expert at all, but I recall JR (who is the Pixie expert) many times saying that the logical resolution should remain at 50.

 

[Obejohnknobe]

I did program the card at 50 for both the pixel string and logical resolution when starting out.  After the issue with  port 1, pixel 1 and 2 working and port 2 with pixel 2 working, I tried reprogramming it with several different selections and nothing changed.  So I reprogrammed all cards back to the original 50 and 50.  With the new S6 they have a bunch more options in the pixel config section.

However, went to do some updates on the card outside (a beautiful sunny, partial cloudy day), removed the waterproof covering, went inside to get my voltmeter to check the power supply.  Came back out, checked voltage and instead of 12vdc-ish it was a little high at 12.48vdc.  Went back inside to get a small philips screwdriver to adjust it back to 12.0vdc and to see if that would make a difference.  When I came back out.... it was pouring rain!!!!  Forecast was 4% rain.........  You could see no blinking light on the card and power supply light was extinguished.    Unplugged card and covered till the rain stopped to see if it will dry out  and reset.  Not holding out hope but it sometimes works.

It is some kind of karma that my display does not want spotlights this year.........  Luckily, have a couple of spare pixie 4s and pixie 8s along with a couple of 12vdc power supplies (360 watt, 30 amp) for the purpose of R & in case this happens.  Just really frustrated in trying to get these to work in my display as the visualizer shows in S6.  I have another 12vdc pixie card and it works just fine in the display.

Just have no logical solution at this time.  A lot of reaching out and trying different things to see what works.  One nice thing the problem has provided is a better working knowledge and experience of the S6 and hardware.

[TheDucks]

I run my power at 12.6 V (+5%) As I told my engineer (boss), there is no such thing as a negative voltage drop, so give us a bit more head room in the distribution. That became the department design target as the Chief Engineer also agreed.

+/- 10% is the common range for 12VDC (non-automotive)

+/- 5% is the range for 5VDC  

My company did not allow 'pots', so we set it 1/2 way  +  since the reference diodes and resistors were 1% (worst case never exceeds the real tolerance.

[dibblejr]

Most of my 12v lights, the volt meter reads around 12.4-12.6 at the board.

If you read 12v even at the board that is a tad low.

If they are working in HU as you say, and they are working in the Preview, as you state but not outside

1- check your cables, which leads me to ask, what type of cables are you using ? Purchased extensions or , speaker wire?

2- Check in your network settings that you do not have - old controller capability mode - checked- DO NOT have

 

How many and what other controllers do you have on that network? 

As mentioned- never change the LR from 50 unless you understand the manual and you need to do so. In 99% of us we will not need to change the LR from 50 

JR

Edited October 24, 2022 by dibblejr

[Obejohnknobe]

First, did not change the pixel per string or logical resolution till I got the display problem. 

My 12vdc power supply is at 12.48 vdc when I checked and did not adjust because rain took it out about an hour ago.  Other board I have is 12.2 vdc and working fine (pixie 4 with 2 strings of 75). 

Did check cables and all check good with cable checker and ohmed them out.  Upon set up, had 2 cables bad even though they checked good still.  Cat 5 cables are custom made by me as I have the tools and checker.  The 2 bad cables were made this year so I am beginning to think my checker is bad now.  All others I made (a few years back) are good in the display.

The controller is a MP3 director gen 3 probably 5-6 years old.  Newest firmware was installed a few years ago. 

Have 7 cards ranging from pixie 4 to pixie 16 on a 500k speed because I will add in ac ctb16pc at Christmas as well as 2 more pixie cards for the mega tree.  Everything in the display are working as advertised.  At this point, I have taken it out of the display to do more troubleshooting.

John

 

[Obejohnknobe]

47 minutes ago, TheDucks said:

I run my power at 12.6 V (+5%) As I told my engineer (boss), there is no such thing as a negative voltage drop, so give us a bit more head room in the distribution. That became the department design target as the Chief Engineer also agreed.

+/- 10% is the common range for 12VDC (non-automotive)

+/- 5% is the range for 5VDC  

My company did not allow 'pots', so we set it 1/2 way  +  since the reference diodes and resistors were 1% (worst case never exceeds the real tolerance.

You always have a voltage drop when you are using it.  Negative or positive depends on where you are at (+ or -voltage) on the voltmeter scale.   Really do not understand the logic about negative voltage drop as it must be an engineer term.  Maybe you could explain it a little better for me.  

When checking the pixels, the voltage on the power supply (spot lights) will be at 12.48 at rest and when in use the voltages drops to 14.5vdc to 14.2vdc depending on the color.  Max voltage equals low current in rest and minimum voltage and max current in use.  5vdc Pixels have the same effect but not as dramatic, maybe .01 to .1 vdc drop.  Hence the  +/- 10% and +/-5% variation.  It will not matter now as the rain smoked the card when it was left unattended for about 15 minutes.  Will try another card and different power supply later.

John

[dibblejr]

31 minutes ago, Obejohnknobe said:

First, did not change the pixel per string or logical resolution till I got the display problem. 

My 12vdc power supply is at 12.48 vdc when I checked and did not adjust because rain took it out about an hour ago.  Other board I have is 12.2 vdc and working fine (pixie 4 with 2 strings of 75). 

Did check cables and all check good with cable checker and ohmed them out.  Upon set up, had 2 cables bad even though they checked good still.  Cat 5 cables are custom made by me as I have the tools and checker.  The 2 bad cables were made this year so I am beginning to think my checker is bad now.  All others I made (a few years back) are good in the display.

The controller is a MP3 director gen 3 probably 5-6 years old.  Newest firmware was installed a few years ago. 

Have 7 cards ranging from pixie 4 to pixie 16 on a 500k speed because I will add in ac ctb16pc at Christmas as well as 2 more pixie cards for the mega tree.  Everything in the display are working as advertised.  At this point, I have taken it out of the display to do more troubleshooting.

John

 

If the CTB16PC controller you will add is not Gen3 CTB16PCG3, it WILL NOT comm with the pixies and you WILL have a similar problem as what you are having now.

I had my very first pixie controller , one of the first out for Beta testing get drowned a few years back when a hurricane made it all the way up to where I am in Alabama. After a few days of airing out it is still working today. It was upside down and in a stream and the air intake vent allowed it to fill up for at least 16 hours. You may want to allow your 15 min wet controller to dry out and try again. Even my psu still works.

At 500K LOR syas no more than 2400 pixels per network. That also depends on the sequences. I have found with sequences I have that my limit is around 1600 at 500K Enhanced.

You can run the pixie controllers at 1000K enhanced as long as only pixie controllers and pixcon16's are used. You cannot add any other controllers at the 1000K speed. At 1000K the pixel count can go up to 4800 per LOR.

Also in the HU, that is only a back door to allow testing of controllers. There is not a whole lot of data like a sequence has so a test there does not mean your show will work. The same applies to the Preview, if it works in the preview it will only work in the show if everything is connected correctly and everything is working as should. 

JR

[dibblejr]

Im going to ask one last thing, for now.

Take a look at whichever "card" you are using and tell me if any pins have jumpers. If you see any jumper please identify.

Thank you

JR

[TheDucks]

1 hour ago, Obejohnknobe said:

You always have a voltage drop when you are using it.  Negative or positive depends on where you are at (+ or -voltage) on the voltmeter scale.   Really do not understand the logic about negative voltage drop as it must be an engineer term.  Maybe you could explain it a little better for me.  

When checking the pixels, the voltage on the power supply (spot lights) will be at 12.48 at rest and when in use the voltages drops to 14.5vdc to 14.2vdc depending on the color.  Max voltage equals low current in rest and minimum voltage and max current in use.  5vdc Pixels have the same effect but not as dramatic, maybe .01 to .1 vdc drop.  Hence the  +/- 10% and +/-5% variation.  It will not matter now as the rain smoked the card when it was left unattended for about 15 minutes.  Will try another card and different power supply later.

John

A negative voltage drop is a GAIN of voltage. Ain't gonna happen if there is not additional circuits at the load (Buck/boost regulators: DC ) , Buck/Boost Transformers (usually Auto xfmrs):  AC.  Common is a 208->240V boost to use equipment meant for 240V in a large office building (usually 3 phase 208 )

[Obejohnknobe]

3 hours ago, dibblejr said:

Im going to ask one last thing, for now.

Take a look at whichever "card" you are using and tell me if any pins have jumpers. If you see any jumper please identify.

Thank you

JR

No jumpers, as all the other cards do not have jumpers.

[Obejohnknobe]

No jumpers on any Pixie card I have.  Just a 120 ohm terminator at the last card.

Thanks!

John

[Obejohnknobe]

2 hours ago, TheDucks said:

A negative voltage drop is a GAIN of voltage. Ain't gonna happen if there is not additional circuits at the load (Buck/boost regulators: DC ) , Buck/Boost Transformers (usually Auto xfmrs):  AC.  Common is a 208->240V boost to use equipment meant for 240V in a large office building (usually 3 phase 208 )

Going to have to look that up as it still does not make sense.  Dealt with old school transistors, caps, resistors, ect , voltage drops across those depended on the load.  Chips, not so certain. Retired now so really trying to keep up here.   Dealt with 4 phase at work due to the power requirement amount of radios.  Fun fact, electrical engineer I worked with showed me there can be up to 16 phases, I was shocked to hear that (pun intended)!  Had to look it up and wow, would not want to work around that.

[Obejohnknobe]

3 hours ago, dibblejr said:

If the CTB16PC controller you will add is not Gen3 CTB16PCG3, it WILL NOT comm with the pixies and you WILL have a similar problem as what you are having now.

I had my very first pixie controller , one of the first out for Beta testing get drowned a few years back when a hurricane made it all the way up to where I am in Alabama. After a few days of airing out it is still working today. It was upside down and in a stream and the air intake vent allowed it to fill up for at least 16 hours. You may want to allow your 15 min wet controller to dry out and try again. Even my psu still works.

At 500K LOR syas no more than 2400 pixels per network. That also depends on the sequences. I have found with sequences I have that my limit is around 1600 at 500K Enhanced.

You can run the pixie controllers at 1000K enhanced as long as only pixie controllers and pixcon16's are used. You cannot add any other controllers at the 1000K speed. At 1000K the pixel count can go up to 4800 per LOR.

Also in the HU, that is only a back door to allow testing of controllers. There is not a whole lot of data like a sequence has so a test there does not mean your show will work. The same applies to the Preview, if it works in the preview it will only work in the show if everything is connected correctly and everything is working as should. 

JR

PC controller is a gen 3 and has been working fine for the last few years with my display.  It is not installed yet as this is the Halloween display having issues with.  Will use it as well as 3 other pixie cards come Christmas.  Guess Phil had talked to you about the pixels and have to agree that taking off the dimming curve will probably work on the WS2811 spotlights.  it is in the preview sequence with the dimming curve and have not tried it yet.

You are close to me in Alabama as I am on the Mississippi Gulf Coast.  You must live near the coast also to get that type of wind and water.  Have the card drying out inside and will try later as I had the same thought.

Did read where 2400 pixels is the limit for 500k and yes, I have close to 2k on the network.  I would have to get rid of my 16pc in order to get to the 1M but the wife likes the led trees that are on it.

Had my suspicions about HU on this situation.  It is the 1st time something of this magnitude happened in my display.  Normally, it is a cable or a programming of a card or sequence creating difficulty.  Most of the time if it does not work in HU, it will not work in the display.

Thanks a bunch!

John

[dibblejr]

8 hours ago, Obejohnknobe said:

PC controller is a gen 3 and has been working fine for the last few years with my display.  It is not installed yet as this is the Halloween display having issues with.  Will use it as well as 3 other pixie cards come Christmas.  Guess Phil had talked to you about the pixels and have to agree that taking off the dimming curve will probably work on the WS2811 spotlights.  it is in the preview sequence with the dimming curve and have not tried it yet.

You are close to me in Alabama as I am on the Mississippi Gulf Coast.  You must live near the coast also to get that type of wind and water.  Have the card drying out inside and will try later as I had the same thought.

Did read where 2400 pixels is the limit for 500k and yes, I have close to 2k on the network.  I would have to get rid of my 16pc in order to get to the 1M but the wife likes the led trees that are on it.

Had my suspicions about HU on this situation.  It is the 1st time something of this magnitude happened in my display.  Normally, it is a cable or a programming of a card or sequence creating difficulty.  Most of the time if it does not work in HU, it will not work in the display.

Thanks a bunch!

John

I am in central AL. Birmingham area.

That was the first time in weather recorded history that a true hurricane made it this far inland.

I remember as I was going to bed the last thing I heard was my matrix being dragged away which had the controller attached. It was short of bent like a sail and the frame is AL.

Figured the controller was toast but 4 days later after drying out when our power was restored (a Halloween day) it worked.

Hopefully you will get it figured out.

Helped a guy tonight that had a similar situation and as of 30 mins ago he had 3 controllers and all worked and was controlling lights.

JR

 

 

[TheDucks]

I suggest a (still) Wet controller be rinsed out with Distilled water. 

Rain water has picked up particles while falling.

You coastal folk have SALT air. That is real nasty to copper circuits.

[Obejohnknobe]

Agreed, when they (EPA early 1990s) took away Trichloroethylyne (Bad spelling, autocorrect is bad, we call it trike for short) for cleaning off tar from ATC cards due to the controllers smoking like freight trains in the tower, we had to go with distilled alcohol and a soldering brush to clean them off.  Good idea though!

John

[k6ccc]

Trike was a great cleaner - before it was banned...

 

[Obejohnknobe]

8 hours ago, dibblejr said:

I am in central AL. Birmingham area.

That was the first time in weather recorded history that a true hurricane made it this far inland.

I remember as I was going to bed the last thing I heard was my matrix being dragged away which had the controller attached. It was short of bent like a sail and the frame is AL.

Figured the controller was toast but 4 days later after drying out when our power was restored (a Halloween day) it worked.

Hopefully you will get it figured out.

Helped a guy tonight that had a similar situation and as of 30 mins ago he had 3 controllers and all worked and was controlling lights.

JR

 

 

That had to be scary!!  Went thru Hurricane Katrina and am 1/2 mile from coast.  Water did not get us but the wind blew off 1/2 shingles, a 1/4 of the roof and a tornado broke one of the large tree limbs and put it into the house thru the roof.  We were in the house..... All bc of a bad decision to leave in the early morning.of the hurricane.  2 years later in a small 1988 RV with 3 teenage kids, wife, 3 dogs 2 cats, we survived and no one killed the other (LOL).  It was a happy day when all of us moved into the house and it was days before we knew we had a family LOL.

Anyway, removed the spotlights from the display to troubleshoot another day.  Beginning to think it is more as S6 Sequence preview issue than a hardware issue.  Why?  in S5 my tune to sign worked flawlessly, S6 the last 2 pixels worked in HU but not in the Sequence making the 88.7 look like 98.7.  Temporary rearranged the pixels to where it looks like 88.7 for the time being.  Recounted the sign and sure enough, the last 2 pixels were not included.  Loaded them in the preview and opened and saved all songs.  Will be testing them in an hour.  Pretty sure it will work now.

 

John

[Obejohnknobe]

Hi Everyone whom responded,

Update to the spot/flood light issue.  First, the card works after letting it dry off after the 4% rain dropped on it.  Still had problems programming but had to disconnect all of the lights to get the card to work.  Second, reconnected the lights and the same results of the colors being mixed up during the HU check.  Checked with Walley's lights and found the 2 orders of the 4 WS2811 flood/spot lights were the same model number but there was one slight physical difference in the 2nd set of 4 sent.  Disconnected the 4 I thought were the incorrect WS2811 lights and lo and behold, everything worked.  Found out after digging, Walley's lights sent me the WS2814 spot/flood lights on the 2nd order.  Those are WRGB.  The only difference was it had LED printed on the nameplate and nothing indicating if they the lights were WS2811s or WS2814s.  Lesson learned.

Thank you for the help everyone and really appreciate it.

John