Need Insight from an S5 Programmer

[machtoo]

I began the process of moving to S5 for next year over the holidays.  Having used LOR since 2006 the change in layout is a bit of a learning curve.  I watched the tutorials  and read the PDFs.  Here is the status and my questions...

1. I have successfully opened and converted my 36 S4 Christmas sequences to S5 and they playback fine in the new preview window I created using my yard as the background image after fixing any unmatched errors by creating new props for the preview.

2. In a couple of the sequences I saw some issues with the  Ribbon channels that were created by the import of the sequence.  Decided to "re-insert" the SuperStar sequence.   So I selected the Ribbons+6chStar row and right clicked on the first cell per the videos but no Insert SuperStar effect is listed as an option.  It apparently is not recognized as a motion effect row.  It is in some and others it is not.  Appears to be somewhat random. Why?

3. What are the 4 rows created by the CCR tree prop import?  Expanding them they seem like redundant rows.  Do you keep all of them or do you delete some?

4. As mentioned I now have all of my Christmas sequences working in the preview window but I could not replace the SS sequence in the majority due to the behavior described.

5.  So I started on my Halloween sequences.  Followed similar process opening the S4 into S5 after creating a full new preview which also includes the imported CCR prop. 

6. Upon testing in the preview playback I noticed only half of the CCR tree was playing.  The ribbons 1-6 row has a triangle next to it.  In the Halloween sequences the Ribbons+6ch Star did display the Insert SuperStar effect in the menu after a rig click.  After allowing it to open in SS opening the file and closing it saved to the S5 sequencer.  The full tree played back in the preview but I started seeing timing issues or delays between the 2 halves of the CCR tree. The two halves of the CCR tree are out of synch.  Why didn't it display ribbons 1-6 on initial open and conversion to S5 in the Halloween sequences?

7. Why are the CCR tree prop rows not recognized as motion effect rows in the Christmas sequences when opening and converting an S4 file?

8. Why is only half the CCR tree displayed during the initial open/conversion in S5 for the Halloween sequences and after a reinsert what would cause the timing issue between the two six ribbon sets?

9.  Any recommendations on a procedure to follow to open an S4 lms file created as an export from SuperStar as a sequence and have it recognized as SS in the S5 version?

Below is a pic of the rows created opening and S4 sequence with a Super Star lms embedded.

I am a technologist professionally and need to understand the above...I have not found any documentation on these questions. Thanks in advance.

Someone talked about the grid view in a response to one of my other posts but the expanded default Show All view with the CCR rows collapsed is almost identical to the S4 sequencer display I have used for years.  Every channel of traditional lights are visible.  The CCR ribbon tree is the only RGB device I use in the 360 channel display.  If I can figure it out I may add a 16x100 pixel tree to the display next year which means adding and programming for 36 sequences.

[dibblejr]

You have to "add" ME rows to your prop. In most cases they are not automatic and especially bringing in a prop or sequence from S4 where there are no ME effects. Some props imported from LOR and other vendors do have ME rows built in.

You have 2 options to bring in a SS sequence.

1- Add and define the ME row to your ccr tree/ prop

  Right click in that row and select the entire row

  Right click in that row again and select "Insert SS effect"

 It will then take you to SS to open the .sup to add (if you do not have an SUP file this option will not work)

2- Open up the SS LMS file from S4 which should be DMX rows

  Copy paste them in to your rgb channel rows built in to your prop

Its pretty simple stuff and I have answered that exact question in another post in the past few days.

Take in account you must build the prop correctly, sort the channels the way they should be before you insert either method.

Also "paste by time" may solve your issues with sequence problems not lining up.

JR

Edited December 29, 2020 by dibblejr

[KYHI]

Quote

It will then take you to SS to open the .sup to add (if you do not have an SUP file this option will not work)

so how do you create a.SUP file

[PhilMassey]

SUPerstar file, so Superstar.

[machtoo]

Understand what was posted above by dibblejr...still have the question on why it creates 4 sets of ribbon rows and whether they are all needed to make it run correctly with the CCR hardware?  If you create an ME row in the CCR Tree prop and insert the SS sequence directly from SuperStar, are the 4 original rows (created by the S5 sequencer automatically when  the S4 sequence was imported)  shown above redundant and can they be deleted?

Side note:  I have seen posts in the forum that copy and paste does not work but I have used that method on a sequence or two. My assumption at this point is if they run in the preview they will run on the show...hopefully a sound assumption.

Edited December 29, 2020 by machtoo

[dibblejr]

2 hours ago, machtoo said:

Understand what was posted above by dibblejr...still have the question on why it creates 4 sets of ribbon rows and whether they are all needed to make it run correctly with the CCR hardware?  If you create an ME row in the CCR Tree prop and insert the SS sequence directly from SuperStar, are the 4 original rows (created by the S5 sequencer automatically when  the S4 sequence was imported)  shown above redundant and can they be deleted?

Side note:  I have seen posts in the forum that copy and paste does not work but I have used that method on a sequence or two. My assumption at this point is if they run in the preview they will run on the show...hopefully a sound assumption.

Copy paste does work, there have been issues but they have been fixed in updates.

If you create a ME row to "insert a SS effect" no other rows are necessary and can be removed. unless they are the star effects, I an bot sure how they play in to the import. You can test it. I normally export the SUP as an LMS and copy paste that in to my s5 sequence.

However if you do not have the sup file you do need the additional channels to copy/ paste to.

JR

Edited December 29, 2020 by dibblejr

[machtoo]

All of my LOR sequences have SS sequences as well embedded for the animations,  36 of them.  All of them use the 6 channel star from SuperStar as well.  When I imported the SuperStar CCR tree prop, it created the 4 sets of rows.  One is entitled CCR Ribbons + 6 ch star.  In the prop settings I specified the channel addresses I use for the star and the ribbons and it created the entries in the picture above.  From a technology view I was hoping Dan (S5 coder) could explain what the prop import is doing and what the multiple rows are used for in the sequence.  The titles of the rows are confusing and seem to overlap...1-6, 7-12, 1-12 and then the total package with the star.  I am concerned about conflicts and performance if the rows are truly redundant.

[dibblejr]

19 minutes ago, machtoo said:

All of my LOR sequences have SS sequences as well embedded for the animations,  36 of them.  All of them use the 6 channel star from SuperStar as well.  When I imported the SuperStar CCR tree prop, it created the 4 sets of rows.  One is entitled CCR Ribbons + 6 ch star.  In the prop settings I specified the channel addresses I use for the star and the ribbons and it created the entries in the picture above.  From a technology view I was hoping Dan (S5 coder) could explain what the prop import is doing and what the multiple rows are used for in the sequence.  The titles of the rows are confusing and seem to overlap...1-6, 7-12, 1-12 and then the total package with the star.  I am concerned about conflicts and performance if the rows are truly redundant.

I think Brian or Matt would be best suited for your question and not Dan.

JR

[dibblejr]

Let me add something.

If you are adding ME rows to a specific sequence it will only apply to that sequence. This may be why you see ME rows in some and not others.

To get the ME rows across the board you will have to add them to your prop def.

If importing the tree is confusing you or not working as it should, why not delete the prop and create them separately?  You are probably missing something since the problem is not discussed often. Create a ccr tree and a separate star. 

When you do that in prop def create one ME row for the entire tree and 6 for the star.

Import as an LMS and copy paste.

Your opening statement is a little confusing.

"I have successfully opened and converted my 36 S4 Christmas sequences to S5 and they playback fine in the new preview window I created using my yard as the background image after fixing any unmatched errors by creating new props for the preview."

If its not working correctly IMO its not successful.

If you created a new preview just open the s4 sequence, do not convert it to an s5 sequence. Just click through all of the unmatched boxes that pop up, let it load the sequence and then copy paste in to your new gridview/ preview.

At least you are trying to start S5 early, I started my conversion in Jan 2020. I may have 50 of my hundreds of sequences converted. Its a slow process.

JR

[KYHI]

1 hour ago, machtoo said:

The titles of the rows are confusing and seem to overlap...1-6, 7-12, 1-12 and then the total package with the star.  I am concerned about conflicts and performance if the rows are truly redundant.

You added a 12 ribbon tree to the Preview and "Ribbons 1-12" & "Ribbons+6ch Star" are  Groups and yes redundant unless you want to select the Whole Group

Edited December 30, 2020 by KYHI

[machtoo]

My statement on successful conversion means after creating the preview for the first Christmas sequence, it was as you described...open each sequence and click through the list of any unmatched channels to clear and save and all run properly with the preview.  I am going to rename one of the sequences as a test and try deleting the redundant sets of ribbon rows and see if the preview still works.  Since the original sequences had rows for a CCR tree, I have to assume it created the 1-6, 7-12 and 1-12 sets from that data...still not sure why it created redundant sets of rows.   I assume I should only need the Ribbons + 6ch Star group for the CCR tree prop.  Since the prop was already available in S5 I used it rather than create my own CCR tree and star props.

[dibblejr]

2 hours ago, machtoo said:

My statement on successful conversion means after creating the preview for the first Christmas sequence, it was as you described...open each sequence and click through the list of any unmatched channels to clear and save and all run properly with the preview.  I am going to rename one of the sequences as a test and try deleting the redundant sets of ribbon rows and see if the preview still works.  Since the original sequences had rows for a CCR tree, I have to assume it created the 1-6, 7-12 and 1-12 sets from that data...still not sure why it created redundant sets of rows.   I assume I should only need the Ribbons + 6ch Star group for the CCR tree prop.  Since the prop was already available in S5 I used it rather than create my own CCR tree and star props.

OK, since I was sitting here sequencing with my S5 computer I did a little experiment and I created a new preview for the tree you used.

The star imports for use as LED or RGB lights, thats why there are so many rows.

Next, it does add the groups exactly how you state. What you see in your preview should be the entire tree group in "blue". Under that you should see the 1-6 and 7-12 groups and clicking on them should show you the strands light up.

If you click on the "+" next to the 1-12 row you will find there are 13 ME Rows. The first ME Row ( all ribbons) will insert a SS or Motion effect for the entire tree. (SUP "insert SS effect only) The other rows can be used for your sequencing needs.

The first 6 channel star row is a ME row. I believe what happened was originally this was just an LED star and it was upgraded to an RGB star. So this was added. (note I am not SuperStarLights so this is my opinion)

The last star group is for the AC "legacy" channel star. You can "hide" them so they are not in your way

I was able to write a sequence using both "inserting a SuperStar effect" and "Insert a ME" 

I was also able to use the 1 ME row created with the star and add a ME.

In the end just hide the channels you are not using. 

All work fine

Hopefully this helped.

Stay Tuned for the Video, its processing.

JR

 

Edited December 30, 2020 by dibblejr

[machtoo]

Interesting...the original SS star was led strings...single white color, 6 channels.   The CCRs of course are RGB addressed in groups of 3  to make 50 pixels out of a 150 rgb led string.  If the additional rows do not affect performance we'll probably just leave them.  As mentioned, my previews look great. Will test in the spring/summer to make sure all is actually working.  Will probably use the S5 pixel motion effects to add the 16x100 pixel tree to the sequences.  Haven't decided whether to eliminate the legacy mega tree in lieu of the pixel tree.  I have a spot on the other side of my yard to put the pixel tree if I keep the mega tree as is and just add new effects with the pixel tree.  Would still use the CCR tree for the graphic animations.  But not there yet.

Often wondered why SS didn't make each of the 150 pixels addressable individually but I expect it was performance.  The CCR ribbon controllers have always had difficulty keeping up with complex color changes for lots of pixels at one time.  Had to always dummy down some effects like spirals, wheels, etc to keep the sequence from bogging down.  I run my show from an MP3 director and not a PC.

[dibblejr]

36 minutes ago, machtoo said:

Interesting...the original SS star was led strings...single white color, 6 channels.   The CCRs of course are RGB addressed in groups of 3  to make 50 pixels out of a 150 rgb led string.  If the additional rows do not affect performance we'll probably just leave them.  As mentioned, my previews look great. Will test in the spring/summer to make sure all is actually working.  Will probably use the S5 pixel motion effects to add the 16x100 pixel tree to the sequences.  Haven't decided whether to eliminate the legacy mega tree in lieu of the pixel tree.  I have a spot on the other side of my yard to put the pixel tree if I keep the mega tree as is and just add new effects with the pixel tree.  Would still use the CCR tree for the graphic animations.  But not there yet.

Often wondered why SS didn't make each of the 150 pixels addressable individually but I expect it was performance.  The CCR ribbon controllers have always had difficulty keeping up with complex color changes for lots of pixels at one time.  Had to always dummy down some effects like spirals, wheels, etc to keep the sequence from bogging down.  I run my show from an MP3 director and not a PC.

I have never had to "dummy down" anything. I have a lot of pixels, a lot of custom pixel props. Perhaps you need to venture in to creating more networks and ensure those ccr controllers are all compatible with everything else.

Yes, the  Legacy star was LED. You could put any color lights you wanted but each star was controlled by its own individual channel. You can get a better explosions' effect using all the same color IMO but I used red, white, blue, green, yellow, orange when I had my 360 legacy mt. 

That is the reason there are ac channels in the prop. If you want a cleaner look you can easily just create the tree and star and not use the imported prop.

I like as clean of a grid view as I can get and even though I can hide props my OCD doesn't like doing it.

If it works in the preview and if what you input in the grid view and preview are what you use for your actual props, they will work. Of course your hardware and cables have to be working and connected to your network(s) correctly but they should work.

JR

Edited December 30, 2020 by dibblejr

[machtoo]

The CCR controllers have always been on a second network at 500K.  There are 12 one for each ribbon.  Been using them since they were available.  They are the original CCR 1s.  Have run them for years.  A PC has much more computing power and speed than the CPU in the director in the 1602 G3.  Don't like having to run able outside or have a computer on full time.  I program the Shows on the SD card, set the 1602 G3 time and forget it for the season.  CAT 6 cable for both networks, but again the processing power of the director is not the same as a PC.  My have to experiment with a PC if I get time.  All legacy lights are on a standard LOR network.  The only RGB pixels are the CCR tree controllers on a 500K network.  The networking is the easy part for me as I have worked in the industry for 20+ years.  That said, was never interested in the pure DMX side.  Will be interesting to see how the Pixie16 performs from an SD card show and MP3 director.

My LOR sequencer grids have always shown every AC channel...360 of them.  The 12 CCR rows are at the bottom of my grid...in S4.  S5 arranges things a bit differently but its close to what I am used to seeing.  I keep the RGB channels collapsed to a prop level.

Next step is to take  a sequence and add a 16x100 pixel tree prop and sequence the effects I need and see how it works in the preview.  Then on to 36 sequences to add the pixel tree effects.  After running shows for almost 15 years I have no plans to convert to all pixels.  Was a big investment to convert to all LED a few years ago and RGB is a step above that.  Once I reach a point I cannot put the big show out any longer I may downsize to the CCR tree, pixel tree, and a mega tree but not there yet.

If I was starting now I would probably go with pixels...less wire and more effects.  I have 3 miles of control cables in the yard for the Christmas display...each of the LOR A/C channels has an SPT1 cable as you know.  Controllers are in weather proof boxes, 4 to a box and located together and cabled and locked for security.  All 12 CCR controllers are in a single box near the CCR tree as the ribbon connectors are not but a few feet long.

[machtoo]

P.S.  I notice you in Alabama.  I have relatives all over AL, especially Tallassee and Montgomery.  Lived in AL grades 1-5...father's side of the family.  I am retired Navy (26 years) and 20+ years into the second career.

[dibblejr]

3 minutes ago, machtoo said:

The CCR controllers have always been on a second network at 500K.  There are 12 one for each ribbon.  Been using them since they were available.  They are the original CCR 1s.  Have run them for years.  A PC has much more computing power and speed than the CPU in the director in the 1602 G3.  Don't like having to run able outside or have a computer on full time.  I program the Shows on the SD card, set the 1602 G3 time and forget it for the season.  CAT 6 cable for both networks, but again the processing power of the director is not the same as a PC.  My have to experiment with a PC if I get time.  All legacy lights are on a standard LOR network.  The only RGB pixels are the CCR tree controllers on a 500K network.  The networking is the easy part for me as I have worked in the industry for 20+ years.  That said, was never interested in the pure DMX side.  Will be interesting to see how the Pixie16 performs from an SD card show and MP3 director.

My LOR sequencer grids have always shown every AC channel...360 of them.  The 12 CCR rows are at the bottom of my grid...in S4.  S5 arranges things a bit differently but its close to what I am used to seeing.  I keep the RGB channels collapsed to a prop level.

Next step is to take  a sequence and add a 16x100 pixel tree prop and sequence the effects I need and see how it works in the preview.  Then on to 36 sequences to add the pixel tree effects.  After running shows for almost 15 years I have no plans to convert to all pixels.  Was a big investment to convert to all LED a few years ago and RGB is a step above that.  Once I reach a point I cannot put the big show out any longer I may downsize to the CCR tree, pixel tree, and a mega tree but not there yet.

If I was starting now I would probably go with pixels...less wire and more effects.  I have 3 miles of control cables in the yard for the Christmas display...each of the LOR A/C channels has an SPT1 cable as you know.  Controllers are in weather proof boxes, 4 to a box and located together and cabled and locked for security.  All 12 CCR controllers are in a single box near the CCR tree as the ribbon connectors are not but a few feet long.

When I beta tested the pixie16's I had no problems running sequences from the mini director. That same director had multiple pixie16's and 8's for my ccr tree and my matrix, circles with absolutely no problems. The mini director has always controlled my remote tune to sign since pixie 8 or pixie16 since.

JR

[dibblejr]

5 minutes ago, machtoo said:

P.S.  I notice you in Alabama.  I have relatives all over AL, especially Tallassee and Montgomery.  Lived in AL grades 1-5...father's side of the family.  I am retired Navy (26 years) and 20+ years into the second career.

I am about 1 hour N of Montgomery a few miles off I-65.

JR

[machtoo]

Did u daisy chain the RGB devices on a high speed network?  The 1602 G3 only has two network ports.  So the second is my Aux A at 500K.

[dibblejr]

Yes, they were all daisy chained and my mini is the black single network.

All of my devices were G3 and capable of 500k enhanced.

JR