LOR vs Zara volume

[k6ccc]

I use Zara Radio free edition to broadcast Christmas music during non-show hours.  This plays on the same computer that is my LOR show computer.  In many cases, the music files are the same files.  When LOR plays the music, it is quite a bit lower in volume than when Zara plays the music.  The Zara interface has a master volume control which does a fine job of lowering the Zara output to match the LOR output.  The only problem is that when I exit and restart Zara, the volume resets back to full.  This is an issue because I have the show computer perform a re-boot every day via a scheduled task a little over an hours before the LOR show starts, and I'm generally at work at the time, so it's not practical for me to reset the Zara volume every day after the re-boot.  Since LOR does not have a volume control in the show player, I can only adjust this in Zara.  Does anyone have any idea how I can save this volume adjustment?  I submitted a contact request with Zara, but their web site says they don't provide support for the free edition, not I don't know if I'll get any response from Zara.

 

[PhilMassey]

I think this is another example of Windows being simplistic and lacking. I've been looking for something similar for some time now. In fact, W10 seems to be, if anything worse about remembering mixer settings than previous versions. I can't even get it to remember the position of the LOR volume slider between restarts. I'm almost positive it use to remember it with W7. I always used to set the LOR volume about 70 percent for the FM transmitter and it used to stay there. Not so anymore.

I have tried a few utilities which claim to address this issue, but without success. 

I have resorted, reluctantly to putting a headphone type volume control in line and adjusting the little dial till the volume is right for the FM and just leaving the Windows mixer to do its own thing at 100 %

Probably doesn't help you much except for the misery loving company aspect.

[k6ccc]

Thanks Phil.  You are likely right about the misery loves company part!

In all honesty I don't remember this being an issue last year, and it's the same computer.  In my case the output of the computer goes into a sound mixer so adjusting the overall level is no problem at all.  The issue it the difference between two music players (LOR vs Zara).  Any adjustment in Windows is going to affect both since they play via the same sound card.  I guess if I really got desperate, I could add a second sound card to the computer and have LOR play via one and Zara use the other.  Then have each come into the sound mixer via different sets of stereo inputs.  Then I would have total control over it!  However I would have to add another 150 feet of cable to get from the computer to the mixer and the isolation transformers to go with it.  I likely have another sound card floating around somewhere.

 

[PhilMassey]

Hmmmm I wonder if a USB sound card would work. I think I have one of those somewhere. I may play around a bit.

If I see any daylight I'll let you know.

[k6ccc]

Likely would.

Sent from my Droid Turbo via Tapatalk, so blame any typos or spelling errors on Android

[k6ccc]

Well, I finally got as solution.  I was talking to one of my computer geek friends a few days ago.  He suggested a mouse macro program.  That would allow having the mouse macro program move the mouse to the correct point on the screen and lower the volume control on Zara after the daily boot up.  Did a little on-line research and ended up installing Mini Mouse Macro (http://www.turnssoft.com/mini-mouse-macro.html) on the show computer.  Created a macro that moves the mouse to the right spot and lowers the Zara volume to match the LOR volume.  That only left one issue.  When Zara play is stopped, you can't adjust the volume.  I didn't want the volume to momentarily start loud and then have the macro turn it down, so I created a one minute silent audio file using Audacity.  Just before I want the music to start after the computer re-boot, I have Zara start playing the silent audio file.  One second later, a Windows scheduled task starts a batch file that has the parameters and macro file and calls MiniMouseMacro.  A few seconds later, the mouse moves over and lowers the volume.  15 seconds after starting the silent file, the Zara silence detector realizes that there has been 15 seconds of silence and aborts the silent file and advances to the next track.  Works perfectly!

 

[George Simmons]

Seems like a lot of effort, not to mention all the added moving pieces just waiting to become part of Murphy's Law.

I also notice a loudness difference, but I'll just let people change the loudness of their radio when Zara fades out and LOR begins.

Edited December 9, 2016 by George Simmons

[robongar]

I don't know to much about the programs your all talking about. But, wouldn't a simple solution be. To set the schedule reboot at a different time. Eg one hour before you go to work, then adjust the volume before leaving. 

[k6ccc]

10 hours ago, George Simmons said:

Seems like a lot of effort, not to mention all the added moving pieces just waiting to become part of Murphy's Law.

Yes, it does add several more pieces to the puzzle.  Fortunately, computers are really good at doing exactly the same thing over and over.

10 hours ago, George Simmons said:

I also notice a loudness difference, but I'll just let people change the loudness of their radio when Zara fades out and LOR begins.

The difference is quite pronounced (at least 10dB - I'll measure that this weekend).  That results in two problems.  The first is that I run Zara during all non-show hours, but for the last hour before show time, I turn on the amplifiers for the yard speakers.  If I turn down the volume to be OK when Zara is playing before the show, then the show is so low you can hardly hear it.  Part two is that to keep Zara from over-driving the FM transmitter into distortion (over deviating it for the radio geeks), the audio when LOR is playing is quite low.  Yes, the people listening can just turn up the volume, but that also brings up noise too.  Having worked as a broadcast engineer, noise is EVIL!  OK, substantially under-deviating the transmitter bothers me from a radio geek too.

Here is what I ended up with for a timeline (all times listed in 24 hours time):

15:56:00  Show computer initiates restart

15:57:50  Show computer completes restart (give or take a few seconds).  Zara starts, but is in a "stopped mode".

15:59:59  Zara starts playing "One minute of silence" track as an immediate scheduled event.

16:00:00  Windows Task Scheduler starts a batch file that calls Mini Mouse Macro to reset the Zara volume.

16:00:00  LOR starts a show that only turns on the amplifiers for the yard speakers.

16:00:14  Zara's silence detector advances to the next track because it detected 15 seconds of silence.

16:55:00  Zara queues a "less than five minutes until the light show" track with a three minute max wait time.

16:56:30  Zara queues a Stop command with a four minutes max wait time.

16:59:53  LOR stops yard amps only show and starts Christmas evening show.

16:59:55  Zara executes an immediate Stop command.

17:00:00  First musical track in Startup section of Evening show starts playing (there is a two second animation that only sends an E-Mail first).

21:00:00  LOR evening show initiates shutdown.  Immediately after the show ends, the late evening show starts (same as the evening show except the speakers are turned off).

22:00:00 weeknights only  LOR late evening show initiates shutdown.  Immediately after the show ends, the overnight "static" show starts.

22:05:00 weeknights only  Zara starts playing as an immediate scheduled event.

23:00:00 weekends only  LOR late evening show initiates shutdown.  Immediately after the show ends, the overnight "static" show starts.

23:05:00 weekends only  Zara starts playing as an immediate scheduled event.

07:00:00  LOR shuts down the overnight show.

08:00:00  LOR starts Star Heater show.

15:40:00  LOR shuts down Star Heater show.

Back to the daily re-boot.

 

 

 

[George Simmons]

Perhaps you can mitigate much or most of the loudness difference with a loudness equalization program like MP3 Gain.

[k6ccc]

43 minutes ago, George Simmons said:

Perhaps you can mitigate much or most of the loudness difference with a loudness equalization program like MP3 Gain.

The problem is the players.  In some cases, the same file gets played.  The Zara player plays it much louder than the LOR player.  MP3 Gain wont fix that.

Over the weekend, I'm going to get out test equipment and make hard measurements and properly set the levels.  I have created a file that a 1 KHz tone at 0dBm that I will play with both players as a reference.

 

[Richard Hamilton]

On ‎11‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 0:44 PM, PhilMassey said:

I think this is another example of Windows being simplistic and lacking. I've been looking for something similar for some time now. In fact, W10 seems to be, if anything worse about remembering mixer settings than previous versions. I can't even get it to remember the position of the LOR volume slider between restarts. I'm almost positive it use to remember it with W7. I always used to set the LOR volume about 70 percent for the FM transmitter and it used to stay there. Not so anymore.

I have tried a few utilities which claim to address this issue, but without success. 

I have resorted, reluctantly to putting a headphone type volume control in line and adjusting the little dial till the volume is right for the FM and just leaving the Windows mixer to do its own thing at 100 %

Probably doesn't help you much except for the misery loving company aspect.

Before anyone gets their panties in a bunch about various operating systems.... :-)

I tell you for a fact that K6 is right about ZaraRadio resetting the output volume to max when it restarts.  It has nothing to do with Windows and never did.  Unfortunately this happens on all versions of Windows with ZaraRadio..

[PhilMassey]

Not windows bashing, (I quite like Windows 10)  just the truth. 

Windows audio handling is at best simplistic.

[Richard Hamilton]

29 minutes ago, PhilMassey said:

Not windows bashing, (I quite like Windows 10)  just the truth. 

Windows audio handling is at best simplistic.

:-)  Didn't think you were bashing anything.  Just that it is confusing sometimes as to what is controlled by Windows and what is controlled by Zara and other applications.   I tend to agree that various operating systems and their differing versions can have strange effects sometimes ;-)

[k6ccc]

I don't know to much about the programs your all talking about. But, wouldn't a simple solution be. To set the schedule reboot at a different time. Eg one hour before you go to work, then adjust the volume before leaving. 

Not really. My departure for work varies depending mostly on whether I am driving or taking the train. And both are far earlier than my wake up times on days off. The reboot schedule is based on a desire to have a clean boot shortly before my show starts. My year round landscape lighting show is scheduled to start at 4:00 PM (although the show is set to start on a trigger - when it gets dark). Therefore the 3:56 reboot time works perfectly. I also reboot my server every Friday at 3:49 - it absolutely must be functional before the show computer tries to log into the domain.

Sent from my Droid Turbo via Tapatalk, so blame any typos or spelling errors on Android

[DSolmes]

I use two different directories with the sound files. Then I adjust both with MP3 Gain.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[Richard Hamilton]

K6, I guess I didn't answer your question about how I get around this Zara issue when I commented above.  I let ZR do its thing about settle the output volume to maximum and in the options, I set the output to be the system speakers (the default), then I use the Windows volume control in the task bar to lower the volume so that ZR's output does not over-modulate the sound to the FM transmitter and cause distortion.  In my case, that means setting the speaker output control to between level 20 and 25.  Since that value does not change when Windows restarts, you won't need to worry about volume changes messing up things.

[Richard Hamilton]

On ‎12‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 9:54 PM, k6ccc said:

Well, I finally got as solution.  I was talking to one of my computer geek friends a few days ago.  He suggested a mouse macro program.  That would allow having the mouse macro program move the mouse to the correct point on the screen and lower the volume control on Zara after the daily boot up.  Did a little on-line research and ended up installing Mini Mouse Macro (http://www.turnssoft.com/mini-mouse-macro.html) on the show computer.  Created a macro that moves the mouse to the right spot and lowers the Zara volume to match the LOR volume.  That only left one issue.  When Zara play is stopped, you can't adjust the volume.  I didn't want the volume to momentarily start loud and then have the macro turn it down, so I created a one minute silent audio file using Audacity.  Just before I want the music to start after the computer re-boot, I have Zara start playing the silent audio file.  One second later, a Windows scheduled task starts a batch file that has the parameters and macro file and calls MiniMouseMacro.  A few seconds later, the mouse moves over and lowers the volume.  15 seconds after starting the silent file, the Zara silence detector realizes that there has been 15 seconds of silence and aborts the silent file and advances to the next track.  Works perfectly!

 

H,,,, I guess I agree with George.  It seems like a Rube Goldberg approach with a lot of moving parts to break.  consider my approach below..... Let ZR volume stay at max and adjust the Windows output volume which will not change during reboot.

[k6ccc]

4 minutes ago, Richard Hamilton said:

H,,,, I guess I agree with George.  It seems like a Rube Goldberg approach with a lot of moving parts to break.  consider my approach below..... Let ZR volume stay at max and adjust the Windows output volume which will not change during reboot.

Nobody seems to be getting the issue.  Zara (when at full volume - the default) plays a given mp3 file about 4dB louder than the LOR player plays the exact same mp3 file.  The Windows output volume affects both equally, therefore it does nothing about the 5dB difference.

Frankly, I agree with you that it's kludge approach to the problem.  However the only other solution I can come up with is a second audio card with Zara outputting via one card and LOR outputting via the other.  The two outputs would then go to two separate stereo input pairs on my sound mixer.  that would give me complete control of the volumes regardless of what the computer does.  That does require another 140 feet or so of the rather expensive audio cable from the data cabinet (where the computer is) to the sound mixer and a couple connectors.  I don't have enough of that cable in stock, and have other financial priorities prior to buying another roll of it.

 

[Richard Hamilton]

K6, sorry I missed that point, but I also solved the balancing issue between LOR and ZR by using the same Windows tool  I open the Windows volume Mixer and it lets me adjust the volume of ZR to match what I have coming out of LOR.  Then adjust the master volume so as to get the right level going into my transmitter.  Try that.