Couple of PixCon16 questions

[Robert Burton]

Just looking over the a little bit of the PixCon pdf data sheet gets me a little excited about this controller. Really behind all the hype (in a good way ;-) on this with work and family. Want to possibly pick up one or two before the Summer Sale goes out.  Couple of questions though.

 

1) What is the great distance people have found the PixCon to work reliably with pixels? I have some coro snowflakes I made in the center of a pine island. If you went to the center of the pine island and went out from there it may reach a distance of 20ft maybe (with the line going along the ground then up the tree to the snowflake). How much of a data drop or voltage drop will I see? I use e682's with my arches and pixel tree now so am familar with their voltage issues. Just wasn't sure if it was the same or not. I will be using about 50 pixels (2811's) on each snowflake. I know that 12v will give me a better chance of NOT having to re-interject power on each. Maybe I might have to?  What do you think? Trying to figure my power supply(s) for the controller.

 

2) E1.31 or enchanced?  I will have a network switch right next to this controller for my other boards (e682). Am I or do I need to run the enhanced network dongle? I don't have any other controllers that would be running on it. What would be the benefit of running the enhanced over the regular network. I really am eventually be going all pixels.

 

Thanks for reading.

Robert

ps Have to hurry up on this since the sale is ending soon ;-)

[Ron Boyd]

Since this is a brand spanking new board and was just released when this sale was announced, the only folks that can answer that, are the folks that were, writing the firmware.

 

That being said, just from my experience, it all depends on what type of wire you use from controller to first pixel. Obviously, with a multi stranded wire that is larger in size, thinking a minimum of 16g, the distance will be a bit further. Some of the guys tested this theory at our mini last year. with a 3 or 4 strands wire, distance was minimal. A wire with 20+ strands and about 16g or 18g wire, the distance more than doubled.

 

I have also read where folks are getting more than the "rule of thumb", 15 ft to first pixel, but it all depends on the situation. Once your board gets to you and if it doesn't work at that distance, just put a null pixel in line and that should double that distance to about 30ft. (YMMV)

[Robert Burton]

Thanks Ron. I generally have used Cat5e cable, but used both wires from the bundles instead of the single wires. I think that is something like 22g or 24g?  Can't remember. Not sure what you might or have heard on that gauge of wire. Honestly this is really my second year of using pixels (third if I include the arches, but those were / are flex tech strips that were pretty much plug and play). So not real familar using a null pixel in line. Always have heard that term, but now I know. That might just fix the problem with my distance concerns ;-) Thanks!

[LOR Staff]

We recommend no more than 7 feet from the controller to the first pixel, using 16AWG.  But like Ron said, YMMV and at LOR we do like to be conservative.  

 

 

As for ELOR vs E1.31, that choice is really up to you.  Here are my feelings:

 

If you are not comfortable with IP routing, network switches, etc, you can run a MODEST pixel display on a single Pixcon16 in ELOR mode.  I would recommend no more than 1200 total pixels per 500K network, and approx 2100-2200 per 1000K network.  Remember, that is going to be a Pixcon16 ON ITS OWN network.  Even a G3MP3 dual network director can drive a modest pixel display at ELOR 1000K using the Pixcon16.  ELOR mode requires S4 PRO.

 

If you want to daisy chain the Pixcon16 to other LOR controllers, ALL controllers on that network MUST run at 500K, and MUST run ELOR mode.  No exceptions.  For each 16 channels subtract 10 pixels from the total you can successfully control.  Please also remember that those numbers are guidelines.  A super fast sequence could saturate a 500K network with only 100 pixels, or a very conservative sequence could run 5000 pixels without issue.

 

E1.31 on the other hand does not suffer from the limited speeds of an RS485 network.  Since you are already running E1.31 for other controllers in your display I would go this way and not look back.  

 

If you didn't already have E1.31 devices I would explain:  You can hang MANY Pixcon16s from a single Gigabit network.  E1.31 is really the future of connectivity.  However all that speed and flexibility comes at a price.  You absolutely must know how to network things properly and how to properly set up IP routing on the computer.  If you can dedicate a single computer to running your E1.31 network and NOT have that computer hooked up to your existing home network, it's pretty easy.  Done that way any routing mistakes you make don't take the rest of your network down - and who wants to deal with a 15 year old who can't stream Netflix because the Christmas lights are blinking?

[Darryl Lambert]

Another note on null pixels. They are just a pixel (typically placed at the beginning of a string) that you don't sequence & is defined at the controller. It's sole purpose is to retransmit your pixel data. Most pixels can transmit data 10 feet reliably. So you can put multiple null pixels spaced 10 feet apart to reach greater distances.

The thing to remember is that they will only fix your data issue. They won't help with with your voltage drop. Going 30+ feet with small gauge wire will mean you have to have some kind of power injection.

[Robert Burton]

Thanks DevMike for the email. Look below for some clarification questions please....

 

We recommend no more than 7 feet from the controller to the first pixel, using 16AWG.  But like Ron said, YMMV and at LOR we do like to be conservative.  

 

>>>>>>>>> 7 feet from the controller?  That REALLY is not that far. Not far at all for most props. I realize YMMV, but 7 feet???

 

 

 

As for ELOR vs E1.31, that choice is really up to you.  Here are my feelings:

 

If you are not comfortable with IP routing, network switches, etc, you can run a MODEST pixel display on a single Pixcon16 in ELOR mode.  I would recommend no more than 1200 total pixels per 500K network, and approx 2100-2200 per 1000K network.  Remember, that is going to be a Pixcon16 ON ITS OWN network.  Even a G3MP3 dual network director can drive a modest pixel display at ELOR 1000K using the Pixcon16.  ELOR mode requires S4 PRO.

 

>>>>>> What limitations are there with just running it in E1.31. Especially if you are comfortable with IP routing and network switches?  Is there limits with S4 Pro or total pixels??? I hope to upgrade to s4 pro after purchase of a pixcon.

 

If you want to daisy chain the Pixcon16 to other LOR controllers, ALL controllers on that network MUST run at 500K, and MUST run ELOR mode.  No exceptions.  For each 16 channels subtract 10 pixels from the total you can successfully control.  Please also remember that those numbers are guidelines.  A super fast sequence could saturate a 500K network with only 100 pixels, or a very conservative sequence could run 5000 pixels without issue.

 

E1.31 on the other hand does not suffer from the limited speeds of an RS485 network.  Since you are already running E1.31 for other controllers in your display I would go this way and not look back.  

 

>>>>>>>Ok. So it sounds like there are no limits then with E1.31????

 

If you didn't already have E1.31 devices I would explain:  You can hang MANY Pixcon16s from a single Gigabit network.  E1.31 is really the future of connectivity.  However all that speed and flexibility comes at a price.  You absolutely must know how to network things properly and how to properly set up IP routing on the computer.  If you can dedicate a single computer to running your E1.31 network and NOT have that computer hooked up to your existing home network, it's pretty easy.  Done that way any routing mistakes you make don't take the rest of your network down - and who wants to deal with a 15 year old who can't stream Netflix because the Christmas lights are blinking?

 

>>>>>That is too funny! There were a few times that I did forget to turn off the wifi on the computer running E1.31. All of a sudden I heard screams from my wife (Netflix), daughter (streaming music) and younger daughter (playing an online game). Yep. Been there and DONE THAT! ;-)

 

>>>>>>I don't have any Gen3 stuff. Probably not going that route any more. So hope to run my older controllers with the RS485 dongle and ethernet for E1.31.  Again, hopefully the new pixel editor and S4 Pro will be ok with that?

[Robert Burton]

Oh yeah. Familiar with voltage drop. Especially that far. I might bump the voltage up some and that might help. I have a couple of ham radio power supplies that I do that for. Been running one of the LOR DC controller like that for years and it has some pretty far reaching leads. With the voltage drop, I would put it somewhere between 12 and 13v. I would hope the pixels would be ok. I think the controller should handle that. Just hopefully the data can.

 

Another note on null pixels. They are just a pixel (typically placed at the beginning of a string) that you don't sequence & is defined at the controller. It's sole purpose is to retransmit your pixel data. Most pixels can transmit data 10 feet reliably. So you can put multiple null pixels spaced 10 feet apart to reach greater distances.
The thing to remember is that they will only fix your data issue. They won't help with with your voltage drop. Going 30+ feet with small gauge wire will mean you have to have some kind of power injection.

[LOR Staff]

7 feet. Controller port to first pixel.  And that is under ideal conditions.  That's not something we have control over, it's just the way pixels are made and work.   If you need more, you need to explore other options (like null pixels that can re-generate the signal as needed).

 

No limits in E1.31.  Well, as with everything there are limits, but from a purely 'can a network handle this many pixels', you will run out of DMX universes before you run out of bandwidth on a GB network.  I'm not saying that the software will push all 999 universes, just that there is enough comm room.

 

Also remember that networks come in different speeds (10M, 100M and 1000M are common speeds).  When we talk about bandwidth we always assume you are running A GB network (1000M). that you are running switches not hubs, that those switches have a switching fabric that is great enough to handle full traffic across all ports, that you are running unicast not multicast, and that you have properly defined routing tables and metrics.

[Ron Boyd]

Well if this thing will only do 7 feet from port to first pixel, there's a lot of folks that are going to have to use a bunch of null pixels. That just seems like a very short distance. Actually about half of what I get with 5v WS2811 pixels. I put a 5' extension from controller port to first pixel on my 16 x 50 tree. That's not leaving much wiggle room, especially if someone were to want to run another element nearby.

 

Mike, has this been verified in testing with pixels or is it just the specs of the controller.?

[derekb]

For what it is worth, I have a few pixlite controllers, and from my understanding pixlite and pixcon are very similar. I made 25 foot extensions from the controllers to all my elements and they all work fine, and no null pixels.

Edited August 19, 2015 by derekb

[Ron Boyd]

For what it is worth, I have a few pixlite controllers, and from my understanding pixlite and pixcon are very similar. I made 25 foot extensions from the controllers to all my elements and they all work fine, and no null pixels.

 

Yeah, I noticed that the 2 boards are very, very similar. The only difference I could see is the Pixcon 16 has a RJ45 jack where the Pixlite has a Euro connector. From pictures, that's the only differences I can see. That's why I thought 7 feet was quite short. I've read the Pixlite can achieve at least 15 feet  and now you're saying a 25' extensions work well.

 

Maybe the 7' limit is on the USB485 network as opposed to the E1.31 network. We shall see, as I ordered a Pixcon during the sale. I will test out the theory when I get it.

 

derekb, just as a curiosity question, what type of wiring did you use for the 25' extensions? One of the newest E1.31 controllers did a test lately and got 60 feet + using Cat5 or Cat6 cable. He used 3 wires for Power, 3 for ground and 1 for data. 

[derekb]

I used 18AWG 3 core wire and soldered pigtails of the same gauge on each end.

[PhilMassey]

Ron.  I was wanting to run 30 ft across my drive this year but 18 gauge wouldn't work.

I saw the same post on DIY.

So I tried Cat 5 and with 100 square 2811 pixels and I'm getting 35 feet easy with no issues. Surprised the heck out of me. 

Wired data on orange, ground on the four stripes and 12V+ on the remaining blue, green and brown.

With an effective gauge of about 20 I don't think this should work, but it does. Oh its a 6804 by the way.

I've been testing for about a week now, so far so good. Going to try longer when I get the time.

[LOR Staff]

Our official word is 7 feet.  Will you get more?  Most likely.  But because we have to support multiple pixel types as well as multiple customer experience levels, our testing reveals that 7 feet is a good safe number to give everyone.

 

If you have a problem with the board/etc we will tell you the max is 7 feet.  We are assured that at 7 feet and under, things will work 99% of the time.  If we tell people 15 feet (or whatever) under excellent conditions using high quality and correctly gauged wire, they will go 30 feet on 28 AWG 40 year old phone wire and then blame us for making a crappy product that doesn't work.

 

7 feet.  Official word.  What you do after that you do on your own