Newbie Question: Do I Need a Sub Panel for 2 Controllers?

[coachdove]

Hi Everyone!

 

I'm a true newbie here, having used a 6 channel Mr. Christmas box (plays the midi file music and does all the work) this past Christmas and am ready to "run with the big dogs" now.  I recently purchased a couple of 30Amp, 16 Channel Residential LOR Controllers used.  And I'm considering buying 1 more when the summer sale happens, bundled with the Unlimited controller Software. (just playing with the Demo right now)

 

My question is, do I need to install a sub panel (permanent or temporary) for the power to these 2 (or 3) controllers?  If so, what is the best way to go about that? My home has a 200 AMP service panel in the garage.  It is pretty full, with only 3 blanks left (1 on left, 2 on right).  I only have 2 exterior outlets on my home and both are on the same 15 AMP GFI breakers.  Last Christmas, my Mr. Christmas box had a max rating of 12 AMPS and 1440 Watts, so I was able to run everything off the one outside plug (nly tripped the GFI once all season), but I used my garage door opener plug in the garage (it has its own 15 AMP dedicated breaker) to power things like an inflatable manger scene, and my Merry CHRISTmas sign from HolidayCoro separately.  

 

My wife likes to have all the lights on after 10pm (when we stop the blinking) but I found out we were exceeding the max wattage with everything on, on the Mr. Christmas and blew the fuse.  So I am sure we will be well over the 15 AMP limit of my exterior plugs this year with all the ligths I bought on sale after Christmas.

 

My 2015 display will have alot of incandescents (icicle lights on roof in W/G/R, same on 3 synchronized arches, incan rope lights, etc.) mixed in with some M5 LEDs (mega tree), so I am worried about my amperage.  I have a Kill-A-Watt and a clamp meter for testing channel loads, but just wondering if I need to invest in a dedicated sub panel.  

 

I plan to expand my display by 1 to 2 extra controllers each year, but trying to keep start up costs down for year 1.  Any other ideas would be welcome.  I'm excited to be part of the team, and value any advice I get from the more experienced LOR users!

[circleracer44]

This past year was my first year with LOR I ran 3 controllers I had around 9000 lights mixed with incans and leds and ran all 3 off one 20 amp outlet I had a timer that had 6 outlets on the timer so I plugged each controller into it and it was rated at 15 amps and I never once had a problem with popping a breaker I had the gfi pop once cause we had gotten a lot of rain one evening but that was it.. So I would say it would depend on how many lights you want to have and if they are incan or leds.

[Ron Boyd]

In your 3 blanks, put in 3 piggybacks and you'll have 6 extra circuits. That should run a few thousand lights.

 

By all means, ******IMPORTANT SAFETY TIP****** If you don't know how or are uncomfortable putting these in, hire a professional to do it.

 

Make sure if you do it, use the right wiring to match the breaker.

[godman]

Welcome to the madness!

 

I think you already answered your own question, If you only have 2-15A outlets then you definitely need to look into more power, especially if using all incans. Using Incandescent lights will add allot of amps per channels pretty quick and will limit you on the amount of lights you can put on each channel/controller. (each controller is 30a 15a per side)

I installed a sub panel just for this reason and I'm only running about 25% Incan lights and the rest LED. The best thing to do is to invest in LED lights but they are more expensive to purchase up front but in the long run is will be more cost effective

 

I purchased a 125amp sub panel from Home depot, installed a 100 amp circuit in my main house panel to the sub panel and then have 6 breakers in the sub panel, this handled the load quit nicely and did not trip any breakers. I have a friend who recommended a spider box (like a portable sub panel) but I preferred installing the sub panel and then I was able to put in as many outlets as I wanted and place them where I needed them, this is a permanent solution but you only have to do it once.

 

This board is full of extremely helpful people who can answer almost any question you have, Do a search for a topic and you will probably find it has already been asked/answered but if you don't find the answers you need feel free to ask.

 

Enjoy and start the planning early!

[Mega Arch]

Hey Coach - welcome aboard.

 

I too started with a Mr. Christmas. It doesn't take long to get the "I want more" going through your veins from that point. I agree with Ron on the statement of hiring it out if you are not 100% comfortable. Safety for your viewers and for yourself must always be in your thoughts and plans. I also agree godman - even if you do go LED and don't need the extra power, having receptacles where you want / need them is a blessing. So if you do add the panel, suggest spreading the receptacles out and not just adding them in the garage. Your extension cord budget will appreciate it as you power up your props.

What I did - first picture - was wire a 2-pole 40 amp breaker from my main panel to a 40 amp time clock. The time clock then feeds my sub-panel. Being that I'm 95% LED, don't really need more than 40 amps. I installed (9) 20 amp breakers in the sub-panel that are feeding (9) GFCI receptacles on separate circuits under my eaves. I even ran some of the circuits to the backyard to control the Minnie and Mickey inflatables for my granddaughters. During the season, the show comes on whether I'm home or not, thanks to a miniDirector on my sound board - the 2nd picture. (My wife didn't really like it going over our front door - but she deals with it as I have her help pick out songs - then "it's her show too"...) By utilizing the time clock to run the sub-panel, in the off-season it runs my landscape lighting that plugs into the GFCI receptacles. However you set it up, think about the future shows. Just because you have (3) controllers planned doesn't mean the madness - I mean hobby - doesn't stop there.

 

And lastly - always let your granddaughter help!

Good luck,
- Daniel

[coachdove]

In your 3 blanks, put in 3 piggybacks and you'll have 6 extra circuits. That should run a few thousand lights.

 

By all means, ******IMPORTANT SAFETY TIP****** If you don't know how or are uncomfortable putting these in, hire a professional to do it.

 

Make sure if you do it, use the right wiring to match the breaker.

 

 

 

I'm pretty handy and have replaced breakers multiple times, and even replaced an entire indoor electrical panel (I own a few rental properties and do most of the repairs myself, except for AC work).  Just never installed a sub panel, but it seems easy enough.  Just not sure on how many AMPS it should have and whether it should come off 1 breaker in the main box or multiple breakers.  I know the important thing is to make sure you use a wire that is rated for the AMPS you are expecting to pull, because that is where most fires occur (in the wiring).

 

In my display next season, I plan to have one controller on the garage side of the house (left side where my arches and roof line plugs will be) and the other 1-2 controllers on the right side of the house, to save on my extension cord budget.  Right side will feed my mega tree, rope lights around poles, and other yard pieces. Should I have 2 subpanels for this?  One on garage side and one on right side of house?   It looks like all of the breakers in my main panel (200 AMP SQUARE D panel in the garage) are either 15 or 20 AMP.  Can I just put in one large breaker to feed one subpanel and then run a high AMP rated extension cord to a temporary subpanel on the right side of the house from that one?

 

Sorry for all the questions.   I'm not afraid of doing the work myself, just want to make sure I do it right.  I do appreciate all the comment and advice so far.

Edited February 9, 2015 by coachdove

[robongar]

Firstly, safety, safety, safety.

Living in Canada, my AC only get used from around mid May - September. So I have 2 - 20amp outlets not used for 9 months of the year.

I put 2 dedicated lines in for my controllers from the AC supply.

I always measure the current every year just out of curiosity. this last year, I had 50,000 LED's. With connecting all the lights direct ( no controllers) I had around 15 amps.

It's a little difficult to measure the current when running, I didn't see anything over 6 amps on either leg when it was running.

I use 2 2x15 amp controllers

[Darryl Lambert]

I wouldn't bother with the sub panel. A sub panel doesn't give you more power it just gives you more places to put breakers. Your limited to size of the wire entering the house from the street so you won't get more power than the 200 amps you already have.

You said that you have a square D panel so I would just use tandem breakers some panels don't have that option.

What you get is 2 breakers in a single space, so for the 3 spaces you have you'll get 6 breakers. If you still need more breakers after that you just replace one of the existing single 15 amp breakers with another tandem & you get another spare.

[coachdove]

I wouldn't bother with the sub panel. A sub panel doesn't give you more power it just gives you more places to put breakers. Your limited to size of the wire entering the house from the street so you won't get more power than the 200 amps you already have.

You said that you have a square D panel so I would just use tandem breakers some panels don't have that option.

What you get is 2 breakers in a single space, so for the 3 spaces you have you'll get 6 breakers. If you still need more breakers after that you just replace one of the existing single 15 amp breakers with another tandem & you get another spare.

Thanks Daryl.  So another question I have is since each controller has 2 plugs, do I need to plug each cord into a different circuit, or is it OK to plug them both in to the same outlet?  It seems that if my breakers are 15 and 20 AMPS and the controllers handle 15 AMP per 8 channel side, they would need to be plugged into different circuits, so I don't trip my 15-20 AMP breakers if my wife wants all the lights on for an hour or two after the show each night. This is assuming the wiring running from the panel to the outlet is rated for up to 30 AMPS.

[Darryl Lambert]

It will depend on how many lights you plan to plug into each controller. Back a few years ago when I was running about 75% incandesent I made an excell spreadsheet to figure out what I was going to plug into each controller, keeping in mind not to exceed 2 amps per channel or 15 amps per side. Once I knew this I ran my power accordingly. Some controllers I used the 2 power cords on separate circuits & others I plugged the 2 cords into one circuit/outlet. If you know you need only one power cord on a controller you can put a jumper inside the encloser & eliminate the secord cord.

Now that I'm 90% LED I haven't even bothered to figure it out. I've had 4 or 5 controllers plugged into 1 outlet. The only reason I plug them into different outlets now is to minimize problems with GFI's tripping. That is when a GFI trips now only that one controller is affected where before when I had them all into 1 outlet & the GFI tripped the whole yard went dark.

If your putting 2 outlets in the same location just run a 14-3 wire there instead of two 14-2 wires. You can share the neutral /white wire between them. This is assuming your using 15 amp breakers. 20 amp would be 12 gauge wire.

 

I must a disclaimer in here that I am not an electrician but have worked in construction for 25 years & until the last couple of years when the rules changed here I used to do all our electrical work. I'm in Canada so some of our electrical codes may be different.

[BryanZ]

Another thought or idea would be simply to use the dimming feature in LOR. Run everything at either 25 or 50%, depending upon what looks good to you. Doing that you may not even need to mess with the electrical. Another thing you can do is try and purchase used LED lights between now and then especially from people moving from LED to RGB. Good luck!

[indi]

I myself made a sub panel and put 20 amp GFI breakers in and ran 3 quad boxes with two outlets in each bos per breaker. The reason, I found that the breakers where cheaper than the GFI outlets. I do run all LED's.  I have not had any trouble with overloading or tripping the breakers unless I have a water problem from the rain or have an ice storm that bridges across the female outlet on the light string.

[robongar]

Re water problems shorting female plugs.

I find spraying them with a " ignition protector" from a auto store. Works well.

[coachdove]

Another thought or idea would be simply to use the dimming feature in LOR. Run everything at either 25 or 50%, depending upon what looks good to you. Doing that you may not even need to mess with the electrical. Another thing you can do is try and purchase used LED lights between now and then especially from people moving from LED to RGB. Good luck!

Thanks BryanZ!  Never thought about using the dimmer feature to bring the AMPS down.  

[coachdove]

Thanks for the input guys!  My problem with going to all LEDs is my wife doesn't like the look of the pure white LEDS or the regular colored LEDs.  She prefers the warm glow of the incandescent lights, saying the LED's look too much like computer lights.  And the only way I can get her "approval" of my new hobby is to include her on the decision making/design of the display.  The LEDs I use currently are the warm whites M5's and the green and red M5's so they mimic the look of incandescents.

 

The part of my display that is pulling the most power is the incand. icicle lights on my roof lines (upper and lower).  We have white ones, and I got some green ones after Christmas on sale, along with C9 red bulbs on the roof line.  The roofline takes nearly 5 strands of 300 lights that pull almost 2.5AMPS per color when connected together.  I know I could divide the upper (almost 900 lights) and lower roof (600 lights) into 2 channels, but I am trying to conserve channels for my mega tree and arches.  Also wanting to buy the singing snowman with guitar from HolidayCoro.

 

That's why I am thinking I need to put a subpanel in, especially if I can convince the wife that we need a 3rd controller!  lol!

[godman]

Why not go with warm white LED icicle lights, that's what I have. With the cost of the sub panel you can probably buy the LED lights you want,  you will also save significantly on your elect bill with the LED and get more strings per channel

[Max-Paul]

Depends on what kind of lights you plan to use. First thing you need to do, is buy a device called a "Kill-A-Watt". This is a meter that you place between the wall outlet and the controllers. I run 95% led and 6 controllers. The above mentioned meter says I am only pulling 10 amps with everything turned on. Now if you are going to use the old filiment light bulbs. Then if it is the old C9 maybe only one controller per breaker.

Like I said depends on what you plan to use for lights. A 500 watt quartz flood eats up 4 amps each.

[coachdove]

Thanks MaxPaul.  I already have a Kill-A-Watt.  Had to use it to make sure I wouldn't blow the fuse on my old Mr. Christmas controller.  It allowed 3 AMPS per channel, or up to 12 AMPS total on the 6 channels.  

 

godman, I might check into getting warm white LED icicles.  Do they make them as M5's?  The regular ones I've seen are still too close in color to pure white LED's.  There's still a noticeable difference between them and the incandescent lights.

[Orville]

Thanks MaxPaul.  I already have a Kill-A-Watt.  Had to use it to make sure I wouldn't blow the fuse on my old Mr. Christmas controller.  It allowed 3 AMPS per channel, or up to 12 AMPS total on the 6 channels.  

 

godman, I might check into getting warm white LED icicles.  Do they make them as M5's?  The regular ones I've seen are still too close in color to pure white LED's.  There's still a noticeable difference between them and the incandescent lights.

Target during the Christmas Season sells an M5 style LED light strand and it looks identical to a standard clear incandescent bulb.    Hoping to get some of these to replace all the clear incans in my coro arches.    I've seen them on in the store and they should satisfy your wife using those if she prefers the old style mini type clear incans.  When I first saw them I had to do a double take, as I thought they WERE clear incans, but at closer look saw they were actually LED bulbs!

 

Also about the water bridging female receptacles, I use those child proof outlet covers on every open female receptacle on all my strands and any open female extension cords {like on a triple tap where I may only use 2 of the 3 outlets}, they keep the water out of them all very nicely.  

 

Unfortunately they are white and reflect the light, so to make them disappear, you'd need to paint them flat black, emphasis on the "flat", don't use glossy type paint..  I used one can of the Wal-Mart brand flat black spray paint and painted over 500 of them.   They work extremely well in keeping water out of female plugs!  You only need to paint the side that is flat, not the pronged side that inserts into the female receptacle.  Although you can paint that side if you want, but it's unneccessary.  And if some of the paint gets on the pronged side, it won't hurt anything.  Been using my painted ones for well over 4+ years now, some are painted on the prong side, some just got a little overspray on the pronged side {when I realized I DID NOT need to paint the pronged side! LOL},

[Darryl Lambert]

Target during the Christmas Season sells an M5 style LED light strand and it looks identical to a standard clear incandescent bulb.  

I've seen these as well. They also had an led string that the bulbs looked like regular incan minilights. Had to read the package to make sure that they were led. You couldn't tell the difference. I think they were phillips brand.