Whats your opinion on selling sequences?

[GDesch]

I was browsing through the sequencing forum the other day, and I saw someone make a request for a song that I happened to have. I clicked on the post, and was reading the comments. Someone (I wont name who) said "Yeah, I have this, I will sell it to you" (. This kinda made me mad. None of us get into this hobby to make money. We do this for the fun and joy we get out of seeing others react to our lights (plus we all gaze up at our own lights like a little kid).

 

I mean, I understand Light o rama itself selling some basic sequences for nubies, and I understand people who do custom sequencing for sale, but if you have it, and its just sitting there, dont be a scrooge, share!

 

But what do y'all think?

[George Simmons]

Okay - I'll argue the other side. 

 

I offer custom sequencing service.  I also sell other sequences I've created.  I see it as being no different than any other artist selling their intellectual product and/or any other software programmer selling code he/she has written.  If someone thinks my work is worth the price, great.  For those who don't, that's okay too.  I'm not offended. 

 

There are many who share sequences.  I think they deserve thanks and appreciation.  A lot of people wouldn't be in this hobby were it not for the kindness of others.  These days, I prefer to give back by sharing my knowledge and experience.  The 'teaching a man to fish' concept ...

 

You mention being a Scrooge.  Everyone knows what that is.  So let's talk ingrates.  I used to share sequences when I first got started.  I was honored and flattered that people asked.  You know what?  I'll bet that not more than one person in five ever bothered to say thanks.  I think I'm a generous guy, but when I give away half a week's worth of some fairly top-shelf sequencing and someone can't take fifteen seconds to say thanks, it leaves a less-than-fulfilling taste behind.  One jerk was selling copies on Ebray.  Another jerk wanted three or four different sequences and then ripped me up one side and down the other because I wouldn't include the music files also.  I mean c'mon, 50-60 hours of work for free and someone can't spend a couple bucks for a legal copy of the music?  That was the day I checked out. 

[JHolmes]

I think it really depends on the individual. I agree with George but I also know that we, as programmers for hire, may make sequences more adaptable to other's displays than those simply making them for their houses. When you get a sequence for free, you risk needing to seriously tweak it to make it look good on your house.

 

And yes, LOR sells sequences to users.

But you know who creates those sequences for LOR? We do and they don't get em for free.

[LightsinMaine]

Do you know how many times I've shared a sequence and then turned around and that person was selling it the next week? Therefore I really don't share any longer. I don't spend weeks programming songs for someone to turn around and make a profit off of all my hard work. So I can see why someone might charge $20 for a sequence.

[Box on Rails]

I have shared lots of sequences and still will, but I agree with George. I spend a lot of time sequencing and if the possibility of making a few pennies to use towards my show arises I will do it. Holidaycoro.com has a few of my singing faces sequences for sale and I have been in contact with others to do animation sequences for them to sell on their web store. All we are doing is making available for the small cost of our labor, sequences to those who don't have the time or knowledge to sequence. The one thing I will say is if you have placed your work for sale, It better be a quality work. I will only sale singing faces because these are the most enjoyable for me to do and due to my Animation back ground I have found a way to perfect it. I don't want the animation to look like the lips are just flapping to the singing. I pride myself on making each face look like they are actually singing. that's a long answer to the first post but no one is getting rich on here by selling sequences and if you are a buyer of any of my sequences, Thank you for helping me expand my show. just saying.

 

Kenny Jure

Edited September 8, 2014 by Box on Rails

[sticks4legs]

Do you know how many times I've shared a sequence and then turned around and that person was selling it the next week? Therefore I really don't share any longer. I don't spend weeks programming songs for someone to turn around and make a profit off of all my hard work. So I can see why someone might charge $20 for a sequence.

I have to agree with this. What bugs me more is others taking credit for your work. Like I said in another post 98% of people I meet through the forums are great but a couple bad apples can ruin it quickly.

[GDesch]

Interesting. I totally agree and love that people like you George do custom sequencing and sell it. It really helps people out if they dont have the expertise to do some of the advanced things. I have even seen some of my sequences up on ebay, and it drives me nuts! I was nice enough to share with you, and now you go and try to make money off of me?!?! I really understand the irritation there!

 

I also completely agree with selling custom faces and signing. That is something that truely is an art form, and absolutely needs to be paid for!

 

The only thing I dont like to see being sold really are plain old sequences. Not custom in any way, just stuff that we made and use for our own houses. In that case, why not share? It doesnt hurt me to share! I share all of mine, and they are all set up to work with my display. If someone wants to take the time and tweak my sequences to fit their display, they are more than welcome!

 

And George, I completely agree with the music not being included. I still run a newbie server of hundreds of sequences, and the only music I have on there is either hard to find music that isnt on itunes (such as some of the original Peanuts music), or music that is custom mixed for sequences.

[shfr26]

    And lets not forget,  folks like George sell sequences that are made for your display.   No cut, copy, paste crap.  If I give you a sequence will it fit your display?   Nope, you have to make it fit your display, all I did was give you something to work with.    You may spend another two to several hours making it fit.

      George's sequences are just pay, plug and play.   No work involved on your part other than to add it to your show.   I am not saying others who sell sequences do not do the same thing, I know when you get them from George, you have to do nothing to them, well,  buy the music of course cause that is not legal.

[Archer]

The sequencing is the part of this hobby that is unique to you.

 

We all build mega trees and arches, outline windows and rooflines but putting together the sequencing is our signature.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Archer

[Don]

The sequencing is the part of this hobby that is unique to you.

 

We all build mega trees and arches, outline windows and rooflines but putting together the sequencing is our signature.

 

Sequencing is the part that takes the most time. Just playing devils advocate here, but some people don't realize that time required to sequence things when they get started. Others have things come up and they can't get to it in time, while others simply just want to follow the crowd.

 

It might be what makes a display unique, but it's probably the takes the biggest chunk of time for some people. By the time they realize that they are doing whatever they can do get a display out there.

 

(And as usual, just my opinion.)

[George Simmons]

I agree that sequencing is the most time-consuming aspect of what we do.  And I don't care who you are or how large or small the display, the best looking sequences are almost always the ones which take the most time.  Coincidence?  I think not. 

 

Once we get beyond the level of rudimentary flashing of the lights to the beat, each person's sequencing style is pretty much unique.  No argument there.  But I'd argue that the display for which the sequence is originally created, is just as huge a variable in how a sequence looks.   And that's where custom/original sequences and borrowed sequences hopelessly diverge.  

 

When I do a sequence, my arches sweep from one side to the other, my poles jump up and down, and my mini trees run from point A to point B - just like everyone else's.  But the times/events when I choose to use those arches, poles and mini trees, not to mention the patterns themselves, might be totally different from one yard to another depending on what else there is to work with and where all those various display elements are physically located relative to each other.  There's a lot of cookie-cutter sequences, but very few cookie cutter displays.

   

And that there is the borrowed sequence cut/paste crapshoot.  In my yard, inside my head, and working with the other display elements I've got, that pattern looks great at that particular moment.  In someone else's yard, timed exactly the same, it might look totally stupid at that moment in the song.  I've done a few of the more common songs for a number of different yards and it's incredibly disappointing how little can actually be copied from one sequence to a different yard without looking like it doesn't belong.

 

As always, your mileage may vary ...

[zooo]

If it wasn't for shared and reasonably priced sequences, I would have a static display. I am one that just really struggles with the sequencing aspect of LOR and cannot afford $30-$40 for sequences that I may just use a few portions of in my display. I have purchased a lot of sequences for under $10 from Holiday Coro, mrtoomanychristmasdecorationsguy.com, etc. I don't mind paying $7 for a sequence that I can use parts of. Would be interesting to know if the $7 sellers make more money than the $35 sellers.

 

Having attempted to create my own sequences, I am well aware of the time people put into creating a sequence. I am therefore careful to thank anyone generous enough to share their hard work with me. Matt Stuart, thanks again for the singing faces you share! Thanks to all the others that share their sequences. You're the reason I'm in the game.

 

It's unfortunate that several people used to share, but no longer do due to the abuse of a few. If I actually created a sequence worth a darn, I too would be a little perturbed with someone selling that sequence.

[Archer]

I always figure it takes a couple hundred hours per song to sequence my 500+ channel display. There is no doubt that it takes the biggest chunk of my time. After every thing is built (on screen) and the sequencing begins, the imagination also begins to run wild.....it's fantastic!

 

kevinkolak.com

[Box on Rails]

You all have raised great points here. The best part of these forums is the fact that you can get just about any song sequence you want for free right here and all you need to do is ask. To the newbie out there reading this, most of us have our small 16 and 32 channel year one sequences stashed in some dark corner of our computers that we would have no problem sharing. we share because we love what we do and remember back on that December 1 of that first year panicking about not having enough music for the show and these guys here came to the rescue with lots of help at no charge. I have learned that for me, I have to give back to the the group what was given to me freely. I love this hobby and I want to do this stuff for a long time and welcome the noobs like me. you guys are all the best and I wish everyone a great 2014 show. the time is near. Halloween stuff is at Lowes so I must leave this forum for now and start putting up Pixels(new this year) and running the Cat5. Thanks to all of you for being there for me.

 

Kenny Jure  

[vdipaola73]

I, for one, have received plenty of free and shared sequences from members here. It still took me hours and hours to get everything to fit the way I wanted. Unless your display looks just like the sequence you're getting, it will take some work. I was ultimately happy with what I ended up with and I am more than willing to share. As George and others have stated already, it still takes time , vision, and effort to get it all done.

[rainyoregonchristmas]

The whole idea of selling your hobby to some people seems troublesome.  I myself see selling objects/sequences as a way to support my hobby/addiction which in reality is a hobby I cannot afford.  Think about it, how many thousands of dollars do most of us have wrapped up in lights, controllers, pixels etc.  I started bartering wire frames for controllers early on.  Then someone asked me if I could make Mini Trees better.  So I started machining them out of billet aluminum.  All the while I bartered and traded and upgraded my hobby through what I built.  No more begging from me, no more skimming the family budget.  This hobby supports itself for me now.

 

But understand, I try not to simply take from this hobby, I try to also give back.  What I design and build now has a purpose of advancing the reliability and ease of use of our hobby equipment.  My most recent venture was a pixel clip, now known as Pixclips, that was designed after I saw my father try to assemble his mega tree with arthritic hands. 

 

I know those that program sequences for sale, do it to make our hobby more beautiful and less BLINKY-STROBIE.  So from personal experience, I say take your skills and abilities and put them to use in the hobby.  Make something, design something, write some software.  Do something that advances the hobby, and in turn, take a little back as a way to enable you to do what you do.  Don't be ashamed of it.  Sequencers probably earn $0.25 per hour sequencing.  If they truly charged what their time was worth, no one could afford it.

 

 

-RainyOregonchriStmaS

[ezimnow]

The first person I remember having "free" sequences out to the LOR public was Holdman. For me his is the only sequencing I would have paid for. As someone here already stated the sequencing that an individual does is not up for critisism unless they ask for it...If it's blinky blinky...so be it..the person who created it and obviously his viewers enjoyed it. I'd rather see something new and their take on a song then pay for what will ultimatley be that sequencers interpretation.  That being said I don't think its a bad idea to ask someone how to create a specific effect and then incorporate that to your original sequence... As an example I've had to ask fellow users how to create specific effects in SS for CCr's. Now that I have that knowledege I can use it how I think it would look good. No one has actually charged me for those effects. For those of you paying someone to do your sequences for you, I think your missing the boat and a big part of the fun to see what you could have created yourself. For those of you who do charge for your sequences and time I have nothing against it...and when you request a Sequence for a song that someone already did for their own dispaly, I would think that would be alot more work than doing it yourself? I mean now you have to adapt it to your display...right?

[eurbani]

I have never paid for a sequence, I had someone email some sequences that they bought and I found them unusable. I just don't get how people use these canned sequences. I have elements, that have 4 channels, 5, 6, 7 and 8. The purchased sequences rarely (if ever) lined up with my elements.

I was hoping that the paid sequences had labeled to timing grids (like drums, trumpets, lyrics, beats...), but no, it was just the channels with their sequencing. Unuseable!

How do you know when someone is selling your sequences?

I too make money selling equipment. I only wish that it supported my expensive habit.

[TitusCarnathan]

My 3 cents.

Being a scrooge? I'm sorry, But people have the right to make money. They put their time into sequencing it and have the right to sell it. Would you expect someone to cut your grass for you for free just becasue they and their lawnmower was just sitting there? I used to share sequences as well but a group of A-Holes decided to rip me apart on their thinkless tank of a Messageboard, so I decided that it's not worth my time being nice anymore by sharing my sequences. Would I start selling them, If I had the time I would use it as a source of extra money to help pay for this hobby.

 

 

Again thats just my opinion
 

Edited September 10, 2014 by TitusCarnathan

[BryanZ]

Someone tries to sell any sequence of mine, that I have a problem with. I did the work on it. Therefore, it is my intellectual property to do with as I please. In this case, it means freely distributing it to those who ask. Others have graciously shared their work with me so I try to do so in kind. I also look at what I've done as a starting point for others. Customize to your display. Add to it. But what is most helpful is to get an idea of someone's work and customize it to your own, especially the various effects and timing patterns. You also, for lack of a better phrase and description, have no right to bitch about my work as it was given to you for free. Sequence only. Music never included. 

 

If you pay for it, then you have every right to expect the person to customize it to your display. Generic ones are nice, customized should be far better but know you'll likely pay a premium for them. 

 

For free sequences leave me alone after I provide them to you. For pay sequences, you have the right to harrass me all you want. As they say, Buyer (and provider) beware.