cat5 cable

[charlesphillips012]

the show i plan to run is about 100feet from my control room and i dont want to move anything outside so will a 100 ft cat5 line be able to handle the load of 2-3 controllers at that distance?

[texascop]

Yes sir. I have about 120' from my PC to my first controller. The next 5 controllers are within 20' of each other then I have a 150' run to the neighbors yard to two more controllers. No issues.

[-klb-]

100 feet only applies if you are using the SC485. With any of the 3 USB to 485 adapters, the limit to first controller is the same as the max total run. But if you did that, then you couldn't have any further controllers.

[dgrant]

I bought the powered USB adapter and wireless transmitters/receivers. Therefore no wires from inside to the outside. Yes, Cat5 or Cat6 outside from the receiver to the controllers.

[Max-Paul]

Please do not confuse the fact that you are using Cat5 or better wire. With the limitations of eithernet of 300 feet. If using the USB485 adapter, then you should be able to go 4000' if everything was just perfect. I would imagine that you should be able to go 1000' and more if you have a good install. Most problems with length is the wire is not shielded and will pick up noise. So, keep your Cat 5 wire separated from any power wire by several inches (I shoot for min of 6").

[Orville]

I have ran in the past 200+' to my first controller, and that from an DC-MP3 Showtime Director unit, then from that controller to 2 other controllers and the second cat5 junction from the DC-MP3 Showtime Director to 2 other controllers, but those 2 controllers were connected with 75' of cat5 from the second junction of the Director unit. Never had any issues.

If you want to know the best distance to keep your cat5 away from any power cords/wires, buy a cheap EMF meter/detector {EMF = ElectroMagnetic Field detector}, I use one and scan down along my power and extension cords,

Now I just use a cheap EMF detector {around $10} that has 3 LED's on it, Green {Safe}, Yellow {Caution} and Red {Danger}, if the RED, YELLOW and GREEN LED comes on I move away from the cord until the RED turns off and only YELLOW and GREEN are lit, and then move again until the yellow goes to only the GREEN LED lit, which is usually anywhere, again, depending on the number of cords, type, and insulation, 4 inches, up to not more than 8 inches has always worked well.

I can usually get away with a minimum of around 4 inches with up to 3 bundled power/extension cords, 6 to 8 inches minimum with others and these come from the controller dangles. But you have to have the channel{s} on to test along any of the power/extension cords attached, otherwise, you may not get a reading from the cord{s} or you'll get a low reading thinking it's okay, and then have issues when the power is operating through the controller dangles next to the cat5 run.

A lot of It depends on the insulation thickness and type of cord as to how far or depending on how many cords your minimum might be between the cat5 and those power/extension cord{s}.

Since I now know which cords can be closer than others, i try and keep those cords together, HOWEVER, the more power cords you bundle together, the higher the EMF will be on those cords, so a wider minimum would be required.

If just a single, or up to not more than 3 cords, I can usually always get away with a minimum of 4", but actually try to keep the cat5 at least 6 to 8 inches away from any power/extension cords that have 4 or more cords zip tied and screwed down with cable clamps along any of my runs.

However, it's kind of ironic that the cat5 comes out of the controller next to the dangles, and the controllers light the RED, YELLOW and GREEN LEDs all on at that point, even the controller itself lights all 3 LEDS on the EMF detector just scanning over and around the perimeter of the box {CTB16PC Plastic LOR box type.} Can't say if the metal commercial units would be any better or worse, since I don't own any metal enclosed controllers.

Sometimes metal will help shield it, sometimes it actually intensifies it, just depends on the metal used.

If I have cat5 or power cords lying on the ground, I use those green plastic light stakes that hold different styles of lights in a single stake {they will hold a string of mini's, or C6's, or C7's}. I push them down to almost ground level with about a 1/2 inch to not more than a 1 inch space between cat5 cable and the ground, and then run the cat5 cable through the mini clamps to the controller.

I also run my extension cords through them to keep them slightly off the ground as well.

Any cord connections are usually set at about 2 to 2-1/2 inches above ground and female receptacle points downward to help keep water out of them.

I also use those plastic push in electrical child safety outlet covers in my female receptacles that are at the end of the strand or prop, again, pointing downward to keep them dry, and free from water getting into them.

And those plastic child proof electrical outlet safety caps {which I painted black} have worked for me for several years now with no problems or issues, even when the female plug, so capped, ended up under water!

.

Edited September 9, 2012 by Orville

[Torqumada286]

Most problems with length is the wire is not shielded and will pick up noise. So, keep your Cat 5 wire separated from any power wire by several inches (I shoot for min of 6").

I hadn't considered this fact, but it makes sense, like when you used to wrap spark plug wires in a certain way to keep them interfering from each other. (Do they still have to do that in modern vehicles?) If for some reason the various wires get too close (improper placement, people playing with the display, weather?), what should I look for happening? Do the sequences drop or skip or go out of sync?

Torqumada

[Torqumada286]

If I have cat5 or power cords lying on the ground, I use those green plastic light stakes that hold different styles of lights in a single stake {they will hold a string of mini's, or C6's, or C7's}. I push them down to almost ground level with about a 1/2 inch to not more than a 1 inch space between cat5 cable and the ground, and then run the cat5 cable through the mini clamps to the controller.

I also run my extension cords through them to keep them slightly off the ground as well.

Any cord connections are usually set at about 2 to 2-1/2 inches above ground and female receptacle points downward to help keep water out of them.

I also use those plastic push in electrical child safety outlet covers in my female receptacles that are at the end of the strand or prop, again, pointing downward to keep them dry, and free from water getting into them.

And those plastic child proof electrical outlet safety caps {which I painted black} have worked for me for several years now with no problems or issues, even when the female plug, so capped, ended up under water!

These sound like excellent suggestions.

I see you mentioned putting no more than 3 power cables zip tied together. Is that a personal rule for you or something that should be done to make things work properly?

Torqumada

[Liberty-Laser]

I run my Cat5 through the same under sidewalk conduit that I run my extension cords. I make no attempt to separate them in the display and I definitely would not seal the end of an electric cord or light string. Do however try to point them down and up off the ground.

1) Unless you are using RGB technology and/or a MASSIVE # of channels, there is very little traffic on the Cat5 (My opinion).

2) Fact - Unless you get 100% seal on an electric cord (nearly impossible), cords are meant to drain naturally & unless they are laying in water will be just fine - don't trap the moisture.

I know at least 1/4 of the folks will disagree because of yada yada yada, but I've done all of the above and have far fewer headaches and issues the way I do it. Remember the KISS principle.

[Guest wbottomley]

I run my Cat5 through the same under sidewalk conduit that I run my extension cords. I make no attempt to separate them in the display and I definitely would not seal the end of an electric cord or light string. Do however try to point them down and up off the ground.

1) Unless you are using RGB technology and/or a MASSIVE # of channels, there is very little traffic on the Cat5 (My opinion).

2) Fact - Unless you get 100% seal on an electric cord (nearly impossible), cords are meant to drain naturally & unless they are laying in water will be just fine - don't trap the moisture.

I know at least 1/4 of the folks will disagree because of yada yada yada, but I've done all of the above and have far fewer headaches and issues the way I do it. Remember the KISS principle.

+1

[texascop]

I run my main power cords for the controllers in the same pipe with my cat5, cat6e cable runs. No interference issues. When I first started working with electronics in 1967, I had a guy tell me to keep the data lines perpendicular to the power line if they crossed. But we also had to have isolated grounds run from the service entrance and tied to a 1000' foot platium rod sunk into the earth and hermetically sealed in gold. This stuff has come a long way in 45 years.

[Orville]

These sound like excellent suggestions.

I see you mentioned putting no more than 3 power cables zip tied together. Is that a personal rule for you or something that should be done to make things work properly?

Torqumada

Not at all a set in stone rule for me. There are some areas where I have as many as 20+ extension cords zip tied together. Just keeps them neat and less of a trip hazard than having a lot of small bundles all over the yard. But I do try and keep any and all cat5 seperate from them.

As for my sealing cords {in response to another reply here}, they aren't sealed permanently, these are just plastic insets that plug into the female ends, they work very well and I have been using them successfully for over 3 years now.

After the season, I pull them all out and store them for the next year, I even use them on any unused channel dangles on my controllers, I started doing this because of an automated sprinkler system I had no control over where I used to live and the hard rains we sometimes get in Florida..

They kept spraying water up into the female receptacles or extension cords that may have had an open receptacle, which was constantly shutting down my display by tripping my GFCI outlet.

Those little plastic safety outlet insets ended up saving me a lot of grief by no longer having to go out and reset GFCI trips, which I was getting every time those sprinklers came on.

So I started using the safety cap insets in any open female receptacle, and any extension cord that had extra openings and no sealer tab for them, and after using them, my display wasn't shutting down on the evening hours when those pesky sprinklers came on, watering SOAKING my display while it was in operation {or during a hard rainstorm}.

So I'll swear by those little temporary safety outlet inserts. Of course what works for me, might not work for someone else, but I do know of others that are using them, like myself, and have had no issues with them either.

EDIT: BTW, those little plastic safety caps I remove, there was NO moisture in any of those receptacles at all, not even slighty damp! These safety caps have blades just like a ,male plug and that's how they work, they "plug" into the female receptacle on the end of a strand, or the pass through on the male end. So they do a great job of keeping moisture and water out of the female receptacles. Again, been using them for 3 years now and very successfully!

Edited September 9, 2012 by Orville

[-klb-]

I hadn't considered this fact, but it makes sense, like when you used to wrap spark plug wires in a certain way to keep them interfering from each other. (Do they still have to do that in modern vehicles?)

No. Most modern vehicles use a separate coil for each cylinder. So just low voltage wiring to the coils.

[-klb-]

Unless I see symptoms of communication issues, I really only worry about separation of the cat5 and power where it is easy to do so,

But if things aren't working right, separation on that network will be one of the first things I look at.

[Torqumada286]

No. Most modern vehicles use a separate coil for each cylinder. So just low voltage wiring to the coils.

Nice to know. The last car I was changing plugs in was an 81 Chevette and I was pretty sure there had been a few advancements in that time.

Torqumada

[Orville]

Nice to know. The last car I was changing plugs in was an 81 Chevette and I was pretty sure there had been a few advancements in that time.

Torqumada

Mine must still be too old then, 1997 GMC Jimmy and I still have to use resistance wires from the plugs to prevent interference with the radio, non-resistance wires and I have a buzz or hum in the radio.

BTW: how did we get on cars in this thread anyway? {sorry for the hijack}

[Torqumada286]

Mine must still be too old then, 1997 GMC Jimmy and I still have to use resistance wires from the plugs to prevent interference with the radio, non-resistance wires and I have a buzz or hum in the radio.

BTW: how did we get on cars in this thread anyway? {sorry for the hijack}

By me remembering that you had to wind old spark plug wires in such a manner to keep them from interfering from each other and relating that to other power cables.

Torqumada

[Max-Paul]

Been at work so could not jump back in till now. I will say this. I do not take any real extra steps other than try to lay the cat 5 cable about a foot away from the wires that will carry 110VAC. Sure if I had to go under a sidewalk then I would bundle for that short of a distance.

Sure there will always be people who will say that I am over the top. But I have been on this board long enough to say I have heard a few people say that their display was blinking lights when it should not have and other times lights would not blink when they should have. After being advised to move their comm cable and in a few cases to put a terminator at the last controller. Things started to work like it should.

My feelings are this. If it takes just a few more minutes to reduce the chance of trouble. Now I am not talking mucho money or time. Then I will take those few extra minutes to reduce the chance of a problem before I have to rack my head and try to figure out what is wrong. It is just good practice to keep signal and power separated. See the NEC manuals about this.

Hey my advice is free, feel free to ignore it.

[-klb-]

From a NEC perspective, the Cat 5 would have to be 300V rated to ride in the same conduit as the power cable.

For the city show, we do have separate 1 inch signal conduit to the different in ground vaults.

From a support perspective, if you don't have that separation, there is not not much troubleshooting that can be done until you do have that separation.

[David Rise]

I zip tie mine after everything is set up. No rules, I just tie them together to make everything look as neat as possible and to keep from tripping over them. the only light issue I've had has been from a bad triac.

It's all personal preference. I'd link this topic though, if nothing else, it will help you troubleshoot any issues you might have..