Laser Concerns

[DownTown]

Hi guys -

I've mentioned this before, but since I've seen a few threads here about lasers in your shows recently, I wanted to post a short article (and link to it) ...

The FAA takes a dim view (pun intended) of outdoor lasers.

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The Associated Press November 1, 2011, 1:15PM ET

Man accused of shining laser pointer at aircraft

DALLAS

A federal indictment accuses a suburban Dallas man of shining a laser at an aircraft flying near his home.

A U.S. attorney's statement Monday says Sammy Don Ladymon Jr. of Garland is charged with a single count of interfering with an aircraft after a laser was pointed at a Southwest Airlines Co. jet on June 2. It says Ladymon is the first such prosecution in North Texas.

If convicted, he could get up to 20 years in prison and a $250,000 fine. Trial is set for Dec. 16. Public defender Richard Anderson declined to comment. Ladymon remains free on his own recognizance.

Ladymon also could get an $11,000 penalty from a Federal Aviation Administration civil enforcement action. The FAA says 90 such cases have been reported in North Texas this year.

(see http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9QO2I7G0.htm )

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20 years in prison and a $250k fine are nothing to fool with (Think of the CCRs you could buy with THAT fine!... of course, 20 years in prison would give you plenty of time to sequence lights...)

Not that any of you would intentionally point your show lasers at a passing aircraft, but the potential is there to cause you serious trouble (as well as causing an air disaster).

If you must have lasers in your light show, make sure you get all of your variances and permits from the FDA, FAA and your municipality. You don't want to end up in the pokey with Mr. Ladymon, do you?

Happy decorating!


D.T.

[ShaggySS]

A perfect example of the messed up system we have. You do something seemly harmless and get 20 years in jail but you can steal billions upon billions of dollars from hard working Americans and not even get a slap on the wrist.

[DownTown]

Shaggy -

Illuminating a cockpit with a laser is hardly "harmless". This is serious business. You blind (even if temporary) the cockpit crew on final approach, and you could have a real disaster on your hands.

Lasers can harm the retinas of viewers. That is why the public display of lasers is strictly regulated. If you have ever been to a concert and taken time to notice the laser beams and where they are falling, they NEVER hit the crowd. The beams are aimed precisely at places that will not harm the viewers. Other lights may be bright, but lasers are a different animal. These can do real damage.

D.T.

[Guest guest]

And is the main reason I will never incorporate any lasers in my shows. I live in to many flight paths for anything like that. And with the number of aircraft flying around today the potential to even accidentally hit one, even in a remote area that may rarely get airline traffic, the potential is still there. And just one mishap and it could cost you more than the laser was worth.

Just not worth having them in displays in my opinion!

[ShaggySS]

DownTown wrote:

Shaggy -

Illuminating a cockpit with a laser is hardly "harmless". This is serious business. You blind (even if temporary) the cockpit crew on final approach, and you could have a real disaster on your hands.

Lasers can harm the retinas of viewers. That is why the public display of lasers is strictly regulated. If you have ever been to a concert and taken time to notice the laser beams and where they are falling, they NEVER hit the crowd. The beams are aimed precisely at places that will not harm the viewers. Other lights may be bright, but lasers are a different animal. These can do real damage.

D.T.

Sorry let me clarify. When laser pointers became popular back in the 90’s I had one and we would shine that little red laser at everything and anything that moved. We were kids that’s what kids do. Yes I do understand that lasers these days are much brighter and more powerful. If your light show has lasers and it shines in the sky and a pilot reports you are not maliciously doing something to harm an airplane you are putting on a light show for all to enjoy. You had good intentions and if it’s causing problems someone should inform you so you can adjust accordingly. Now if you live is a known flight path that’s a different story. I only get an occasional news helicopter flying over my house.

Now this specific case I know absolutely nothing about, nor do I know capabilities that these new lasers I am by no means an expert when it comes to lasers. If this was some kid messing around getting 20 years is crap. If it was someone doing this maliciously then yes 20 years does sound fair.

My point was why is it that pointing a laser pointer at an airplane can get you 20 years in jail but stealing billions and billions of dollars from the American people doesn’t even get you a day in court. Yes you could argue that a laser could cause the pilot to lose control of the plane and kill everyone on board but that is an indirect result. I could then throw in the argument that when people lose their life savings because of a few greedy CEO’s gambling America on something that they know false indirectly caused a lot of suicides. Remember Enron. How much jail time came from that?

I asked a guy here at work who flies private jets and he did inform me that it actually happens more than you’d think getting a laser shined at an airplane he has had it happen to him on several occasions and they report each case but they rarely catch them.

I guess I should brush up on my laser technology.

[Santas Helper]

It does happen a lot more than we think. Being in the FAA, we get a daily broadcast of news on aviation and at least once a week there is a report of someone getting busted for doing this, on purpose most of the time too.

[DownTown]

Thanks for chiming in, Tom. The general public doesn't seem to understand the gravity of the matter, nor do they understand how serious the FAA is about prosecuting those that are caught. The feds aren't interested in giving warnings. They don't care about "good intentions"... if they catch you, you're going to suffer... It seems to be that way with many federal agencies... all business, and no soft fuzzy edges. So let this be your warning. For a laser display, you will need permits from The FDA, the FAA and probably your local authorities. Unless you get those permits, you shouldn't be using lasers in your display.

I'm not here to spout philosophy on wall street bigwigs... (though without those bigwigs, there would be no organization under them, and with no organization comes no jobs). I'm just trying to inform you of the laws that could entangle you if you're not careful to cross your T's and dot your I's.

D.T.

[Guest guest]

I don't recall what the FAA milage limits were, but when I checked they have a limitation to how close you can be to any given airport, and also if you are in a flight path, even if it isn't used daily, if there is a flight path near or above your home, they usually won't permit a laser device pointing to the sky. And you sure don't want them pointing vertical where they could blind a driver either.

I think laser light shows are great for placing like Disney where there are NO FLY ZONES, but anywhere outside a no fly zone, I'd say forget using any type of laser device. Not unless you place a very large tarp over the area where the lasers are projecting and can not pass through the covering. The FAA would need to see your layout, covering used before they'd permit it. At least that's the information I got when I was just a bit curious about laser use, that and I've read other incidents of folks getting arrested with hefty fines just by pointing one of those small pointer type lasers at an aircraft, even if just accidentally because they were just playing around with it. FAA does indeed take an extremely dim view on lasers of any kind.

[TJ Hvasta]

ShaggySS wrote:

DownTown wrote:

Shaggy -

Illuminating a cockpit with a laser is hardly "harmless". This is serious business. You blind (even if temporary) the cockpit crew on final approach, and you could have a real disaster on your hands.

Lasers can harm the retinas of viewers. That is why the public display of lasers is strictly regulated. If you have ever been to a concert and taken time to notice the laser beams and where they are falling, they NEVER hit the crowd. The beams are aimed precisely at places that will not harm the viewers. Other lights may be bright, but lasers are a different animal. These can do real damage.

D.T.

If your light show has lasers and it shines in the sky and a pilot reports you are not maliciously doing something to harm an airplane you are putting on a light show for all to enjoy. You had good intentions and if it’s causing problems someone should inform you so you can adjust accordingly.

So if you randomly shoot into the air, and that round comes back down and kills someone (happens ALL the time here), you're not responsible as you're just celebrating??

Shaggy, "seemingly harmless??" You are kidding, right?? I've been hit by a laser that was more than 4 miles away and I was blinded. A "Real Man of Genius" lit up my jet and several others on approach into Phoenix back in January.. Phoenix PD chopper was sent out to find the perp.. the idiot lit up the chopper.. he was arrested 10 minutes later.. Being illuminated is SERIOUS.. at best its temporary blindedness that lasts hours to days.. At its worst (close encounter), it's permanent and career-ending. Imagine the penalty phase.. "Ok Mr. Pilot, you fly for XXXXXX airlines, you gross $150K a year and each year it goes up $4K by your contract, plus benefits, you have 22 years left in your flying career... so what do you say to oooohhh.. $10 million? That enough to compensate you for the loss of your livelihood, benefits and ability TO SEE ANYTHING??

And saying "it's too far away" to bother anyone apparently never thot about people shooting randomly into the air on New Years Eve.. you know how many people are injured or killed THAT way??

No kidding, a laser illumination is NOT like casually glancing at a barcode scanner at the grocery store.. (dont even get me started on THAT one). Being intentionally lit up would make me dump the plane's lav on your house.

Why am I so vehement about this?? I've been lit up several times, to where I had to stop flying for several days to heal.

20yrs punishment, thats abt 10 too little.

:rant off

[ShaggySS]

Wow! Next time I will stay out of topics I am not an expert in. Lasers in my mind are red and used to point at a powerpoint presentation. So yes pretty harmless IMO

Forgive my ignorance when it comes to lasers.

[TJ Hvasta]

handheld Laser pointers are red, those that maim the worst are green. Range is 15-18 miles and even then its still dangerous.

[Steven]

ShaggySS wrote:

Forgive my ignorance when it comes to lasers.

Yeah, me too. I have aimed a (handheld) laser across the street at a 2" target and it wasn't easy to hit. I keep wondering how easy it would be to hit an eyeball (1/4"?) from 2000 feet away. That seems like a million-to-one shot to me.

[Alan C]

If you shine a flashlight at your hand, you will perhaps see a brightly lit area about one inch across. If you shine the same flashlight at a wall a few feet away, you will see that the beam has "spread" and is now a few feet in diameter, and looks dimmer than it did before.

If you shine a laser pointer at your hand, you will see a bright spot about a sixteenth of an inch in diameter. If you shine a laser pointer at a piece of paper a mile away (assuming you can line it up), you will still see a bright spot about a sixteenth of an inch in diameter. This is the problem - the beam does not spread with distance, it is still as concentrated as when it left the laser pointer.

You will find that red laser light "seems" better, simply because the human eye's "blink reflex" operates faster that with green light, so not as much light enters the eye, before you have the eyelid between the eye and the laser pointer. The different wavelength light also affects a different part of the eye. Are the ones that are used for presentations dangerous if you look directly at them? Yes. I wouldn't do it.

Although I dislike wikipedia as an online resource, its section on laser safety here >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_safety seems about correct from a brief read through. It specifically mentions laser pointers!

Regards,

Alan.

[TJ Hvasta]

Just a little "light" reading:

http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/blinded-light-faa-warns-pilots-laser-dangers/story?id=12350733

http://laserfx.com/BasicSafety/IndexBasicSafety.html

http://www.ehow.com/about_5106627_dangers-laser-pointers.html

http://www.ehow.com/list_5806253_laser-light-pen-dangers.html

http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/25597/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_safety

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4191/is_20050104/ai_n10043772/

[TJ Hvasta]

Class 3 lasers, those used specifically in Light Shows have the strongest outputs and therefore the highest retina burning dangers.

[TJ Hvasta]

I really hope I can come out of my shell, not be so timid and say whats really bothering me

My apologies to all for being so vocal on this. The dangers are very real, I hope all take it as seriously.

[R Weiland]

Alan C wrote:

.....If you shine a laser pointer at your hand, you will see a bright spot about a sixteenth of an inch in diameter. If you shine a laser pointer at a piece of paper a mile away (assuming you can line it up), you will still see a bright spot about a sixteenth of an inch in diameter. This is the problem - the beam does not spread with distance, ....

Alan,
not to take away from your excellent point, but to be accurate all LASERS have a beam divergence spec which is a measure of how much the beam diameter changes with distance. A typical hand held LASER pointer will have a beam diameter of several feet at a mile range. There is still a lot of energy in the spot. Most laser pointers are 1 to 5 milli-Watts but for around a $100 - #200 you can get a 1-5 Watt laser pointer that can burn paper :shock:
You will only see it once!

[Santas Helper]

TJ Hvasta wrote:

My apologies to all for being so vocal on this. The dangers are very real, I hope all take it as seriously.

No need to apologize TJ. This subject is very new to majority of people as so is the problem and what can happen to a pilot, who relies on his vision to perform his job and get everyone on the ground safely.

And to all the pilots out there, I appreciate you getting me and others back on the ground safely each and every time.

[Alan C]

R Weiland wrote:

. . . not to take away from your excellent point, but to be accurate all LASERS have a beam divergence spec which is a measure of how much the beam diameter changes with distance. A typical hand held LASER pointer will have a beam diameter of several feet at a mile range. There is still a lot of energy in the spot. . .

Yes, fair point, I accept that I exaggerated it a bit. What I was trying to explain (to someone who I suspect didn't understand the risk) was why a laser is much more dangerous than a standard flashlight, and why a great deal of care has to be taken over where visible lasers are used / pointed, even when the "risk" is some considerable distance away.

Edited to correct "quote" box.

Regards,

Alan.

[scubado]

I remember in another thread somewhere on this topic someone posted a pic or video as to what happens when the lazer hit the cockpit windows, it lights up everything! It's not just a small ramdom beam that just so happens to hit a pilots eyeball.