Can't figure this one out!

[Guest guest]

So, I thought it was the rain that was blowing one of my breakers, but it's all dried out now and still doing it. I can't figure this one out. Experts...HELP!

I have 64 channels, 8 separate breakers. On my #4 box I have this amperage going (based on my cheap amp tester):

1 1.2 9 .2
2 .5 10 .1
3 .6 11 .1
4 .6 12 .2
5 1.7 13 1.5
6 .6 14 1.1
7 .6 15 1.5
8 1.5 16 1.1

I measured the amps in sets of 4 since that's how they're set up

1-4= 2.3
5-8=4.2
9-12=.3
13-16=5.0

**Can you tell where the LED's are?!**

So you can see I'm well under the 30 amps, and under the 15 amps on each side.

But here's what happens. When I have 13, 14 and 15 plugged in, it trips the breaker. I can unplug any one of the three and it's ok. So as an interim fix, I've run #13 to a different LOR unit and that works fine, but I'd really like to know why this isn't working! I even switched the plugs on the LOR to see if it was the circuit breaker, and the problem switched to the other breaker.

I'm stumped!

[Dennis Cherry]

You said "Trip the Breaker" are you talking about a GFCI or a 15 or 20 amp Breaker?

From your explanation I believe you are talking about a GFCI. This is a ground fault condition and not a high current condition.

Some items to check. Lights sitting in water. Lots of lights wrapped on wire frames to tight. To many plugs sitting on the ground, must elevate.

It sometimes takes several channels of lights to add up enough leakage current to trip the GFCI, sometimes it could only be one channel of lights doing it.

Wire frames (Mini trees) pushed into the ground have been a problem sometimes with so many lights wrapped on them. Some people had to elevate them on wood blocks or bricks to eliminate this kind of breaker trip.

Let us know that you find.

[Guest guest]

They are GFCI breakers.

I narrowed it down to the three channels. I don't really know how a GFCI knows to trip, so I didn't know about leakage. I do have light strings going to the ground, so I'll check those out. I didn't know that it could be a cumulative thing like that. I thought if one socket got wet, it would trip the GFCI.

Since the breakers are also GFCI, I wouldn't really know, though, if it were a ground fault problem or an overload on the breaker would I?

Thanks for adding more clues to the puzzle.

[-klb-]

Basically, a GFCI compares how much current is leaving the circuit, with how much is coming back. Extremely small variances are allowed, but once the difference gets over a few milliamps, the GFCI will trip. So if there is a way for current to get from hot to ground, or hot to another circuit, or neutral to another hot, you will create an imbalance in the current. The question is if it is enough to trip the GFCI or not.

Generally, rain water is clean enough that it does not conduct enough electricity to directly cause a GFCI trip, without a heck of a lot of path to ground. But once that water touches the ground, it picks up enough conductive contaminants to be a problem fairly quickly.

Also note that unintended paths within the same circuit are not going to trip a GFCI. For example, you could drop a live ungrounded cord end into a glass of dilute salt water, which will conduct several times what the GFCI will trip on, but because the current is flowing between points on the same circuit (the circuit's hot and neutral) it won't trip. If it were a grounded cord, odds are good that some current will run from hot to ground, and that the resulting imbalance will trip the GFCI.

Cases like yours are one of the biggest ones that cause people to advocate having the GFCI protection in the outlets, rather than the breakers, so one can separate GFCI issues from over current issues.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for that KLB. My electrician recommended the GFCI breakers over the outlets...I'm not sure why.

I guess I really need to get out there and see which lights are touching the ground!

[-klb-]

A lot of the outlet vs breaker arguments come down to personal choice. Many argue that especially when installed outdoors, the GFCI outlets are now more likely to fail due to exposure to moisture. But generally they are cheaper to replace than the breakers if they do go bad, and not all failures are related to moisture exposure.

For holiday lighting, it is our use case that tends to push towards the GFCI in the outlet, for the easy way to tell which fault condition is present. But, with your detailed measurements, you can pretty much rule out tripping on current, and looking at tripping on GFCI. So doing the same measurements will let you figure out which is the issue in the future as well.

[cmoore60]

july1962 wrote:

Since the breakers are also GFCI, I wouldn't really know, though, if it were a ground fault problem or an overload on the breaker would I?

Thanks for adding more clues to the puzzle.

ON the GFI breakers you can tell if it is the breaker or the GFI that is tripping. If the breaker is tripping due to an overload condition the handle on the breaker will move to a point in the middle, and will require you to switch the full off before switching to the on position.

The GFI portion of the breaker will have a button that will need to be pressed to reset the GFI.

My question is which action are you having to do?

Chuck

[Guest guest]

cmoore60 wrote:

july1962 wrote:

Since the breakers are also GFCI, I wouldn't really know, though, if it were a ground fault problem or an overload on the breaker would I?

Thanks for adding more clues to the puzzle.

ON the GFI breakers you can tell if it is the breaker or the GFI that is tripping. If the breaker is tripping due to an overload condition the handle on the breaker will move to a point in the middle, and will require you to switch the full off before switching to the on position.

The GFI portion of the breaker will have a button that will need to be pressed to reset the GFI.

My question is which action are you having to do?

Chuck

The breaker is going to the middle. I have to turn it off and then on to reset it. It just has a yellow "test" button for the GFCI. I'm pretty sure it trips the breaker if it's the GFCI.

[cmoore60]

Understand!

So if you reset and press the test button how does the handle react? Does it move to the middle?

I do agree that your problem is GFI related. From my experience not only connections laying on the ground can cause problems....on 2 occasions I had light strings that either did not get plugged in all the way, or they came out some and exposed part of the blades.

My mini-trees are my largest source of GFI problems. Really is no suprise. Metal frame, with lights wrapped on it and stuck in teh ground. All that is needed is rain.

Chuck

[Guest guest]

cmoore60 wrote:

Understand!

So if you reset and press the test button how does the handle react? Does it move to the middle?

I do agree that your problem is GFI related. From my experience not only connections laying on the ground can cause problems....on 2 occasions I had light strings that either did not get plugged in all the way, or they came out some and exposed part of the blades.

My mini-trees are my largest source of GFI problems. Really is no suprise. Metal frame, with lights wrapped on it and stuck in teh ground. All that is needed is rain.

Chuck

I haven't pressed the test button, but I assume that's what it does.

I just didn't know that the problem could be cumulative. That explains why it took three channels before it would trip. But it sure makes it a lot harder to narrow down where the problem is.

[cmoore60]

I do understand that being accumlative does make it more difficult to isolate. Do the best you can to keep all connections try and then hope for the best.

I am fortunate enough to hope for freezing temps. Ice does not conduct.

Chuck

[-klb-]

It has been a long time since I have actually installed a GFCI breaker, but the last ones I interacted with only had a test button beyond the normal breaker lever. Pressing test took it to the tripped position just the same as an overload. If you have some that do it differently, then it would appear that some advances have been made...