marcmiller04 Posted November 30, 2018 Posted November 30, 2018 I am running new plugs to the area where I will be placing my controllers and wanted to know if I should consider throwing a standard 120v plug in there with the tabs broken so that each plug can be on a separate circuit. BUT, what is the 240v for? I have done some (minimal) searching and haven't come across the answer. Thanks
Don Posted November 30, 2018 Posted November 30, 2018 Based on your profile you live in the US. We (US) run in 120V. Some countries on 240V. Stick with 120V. 1
k6ccc Posted November 30, 2018 Posted November 30, 2018 Since you are in the United States, there is ZERO reason for you to even consider 240 volts in your display. The only reason for the 240 volt option is there are parts of the world where their "normal" power is 240 - no 120 volt available. England comes to mind, but there are others. 1
marcmiller04 Posted November 30, 2018 Author Posted November 30, 2018 Perfect, thanks guys, I kinda figured that, but wanted to ask to be sure. Appreciate it
marcmiller04 Posted November 30, 2018 Author Posted November 30, 2018 1 minute ago, k6ccc said: Since you are in the United States, there is ZERO reason for you to even consider 240 volts in your display. The only reason for the 240 volt option is there are parts of the world where their "normal" power is 240 - no 120 volt available. England comes to mind, but there are others. K6, I used to live in Santa Clarita... not too far away, I have probably seen your display at one point or another
k6ccc Posted November 30, 2018 Posted November 30, 2018 Well, I guess there are two reasons to use 240 volts. The first is if you are the lighting director for TSO and you need to drive hundreds of KiloWatts of light. The second is if you LIKE to watch the magic smoke leak out of your controller, and lights. However I suspect that neither is the case. I do get to see TSO tomorrow 3 minutes ago, marcmiller04 said: K6, I used to live in Santa Clarita... not too far away, I have probably seen your display at one point or another That's a fair drive, but if you ever attended the Simi Valley summer get together, we may have met. Where are you in Colorado? My sister is in Colorado Springs.
TheDucks Posted November 30, 2018 Posted November 30, 2018 6 minutes ago, marcmiller04 said: Perfect, thanks guys, I kinda figured that, but wanted to ask to be sure. Appreciate it That does not stop you from using a Multi-wire (120/240. Red,Black,White plus the Green ground) circuit to those new outlets . That can work out better, because the voltage drop on Neutral can null out with balanced loads. Just remember to break that Tab on the Gold side ONLY
marcmiller04 Posted November 30, 2018 Author Posted November 30, 2018 5 minutes ago, TheDucks said: That does not stop you from using a Multi-wire (120/240. Red,Black,White plus the Green ground) circuit to those new outlets . That can work out better, because the voltage drop on Neutral can null out with balanced loads. Just remember to break that Tab on the Gold side ONLY Makes sense to let the neutral carry the remaining balance. Good point. Thanks
marcmiller04 Posted November 30, 2018 Author Posted November 30, 2018 11 minutes ago, k6ccc said: Well, I guess there are two reasons to use 240 volts. The first is if you are the lighting director for TSO and you need to drive hundreds of KiloWatts of light. The second is if you LIKE to watch the magic smoke leak out of your controller, and lights. However I suspect that neither is the case. I do get to see TSO tomorrow That's a fair drive, but if you ever attended the Simi Valley summer get together, we may have met. Where are you in Colorado? My sister is in Colorado Springs. ooooh I love watching things smoke and the smell of burnt electronics... I never attended a get together in Simi, but my dad and all of his family live there, so I've been there once or twice 😛
k6ccc Posted November 30, 2018 Posted November 30, 2018 7 minutes ago, TheDucks said: That does not stop you from using a Multi-wire (120/240. Red,Black,White plus the Green ground) circuit to those new outlets . That can work out better, because the voltage drop on Neutral can null out with balanced loads. Just remember to break that Tab on the Gold side ONLY Keep in mind that the National Electrical Code REQUIRES GFCI protection on almost all outdoor outlets. I have never seen a GFCI outlet that was a dual outlet where each outlet was a separate GFCI device. You can't use a shared neutral downstream of a GFCI - unless you like instant trips.
TheDucks Posted November 30, 2018 Posted November 30, 2018 48 minutes ago, k6ccc said: Keep in mind that the National Electrical Code REQUIRES GFCI protection on almost all outdoor outlets. I have never seen a GFCI outlet that was a dual outlet where each outlet was a separate GFCI device. You can't use a shared neutral downstream of a GFCI - unless you like instant trips. You can use a 2 pole GFCI BREAKER. It has the white wire, so it handles unbalanced loading. The codes wording is 'GFCI Protected' The main reason for using GFCI outlets is convenience of reset .
k6ccc Posted November 30, 2018 Posted November 30, 2018 5 minutes ago, TheDucks said: You can use a 2 pole GFCI BREAKER. It has the white wire, so it handles unbalanced loading. The codes wording is 'GFCI Protected' That is true, but damn are those things expensive! 19 minutes ago, TheDucks said: The main reason for using GFCI outlets is convenience of reset . The bigger reason for using GFCI outlets over breakers is cost. A GFCI outlet costs about half the cost difference between a stock breaker and a GFCI breaker. And Arc Fault makes them even more expensive...
TheDucks Posted November 30, 2018 Posted November 30, 2018 6 minutes ago, k6ccc said: That is true, but damn are those things expensive! The bigger reason for using GFCI outlets over breakers is cost. A GFCI outlet costs about half the cost difference between a stock breaker and a GFCI breaker. And Arc Fault makes them even more expensive... Ain't that the truth. And they have (IMHO unnecessarily Escalated the use requirements of AFCI. 10 Y ago, it was bedrooms. Now it is almost the entire house.) It is absurd, they now require GFCI on your dishwasher and that can't share by the latest code AND the GFCI reset has to be accessible. A 3 prong plug device that does not frequently move, needs additional protection on Ground failure ?? 😡
Orville Posted December 1, 2018 Posted December 1, 2018 5 hours ago, TheDucks said: Ain't that the truth. And they have (IMHO unnecessarily Escalated the use requirements of AFCI. 10 Y ago, it was bedrooms. Now it is almost the entire house.) It is absurd, they now require GFCI on your dishwasher and that can't share by the latest code AND the GFCI reset has to be accessible. A 3 prong plug device that does not frequently move, needs additional protection on Ground failure ?? 😡 Surprised they haven't demanded them be put on refrigerators and freezers, after, if then lose power and defrost, they can create some nice water puddles. Not all are frost free. I know MINE aren't! And let's add one to the stove too, that's 240V, at least my stove is. And yet, none of these items plugs are anywhere easily accessible! So I'd have to have a what, remote GFCI button somehow for these things? Sounds to me like someone had their head up their {or someones} backside on making that requirement code!
TheDucks Posted December 1, 2018 Posted December 1, 2018 8 minutes ago, Orville said: Surprised they haven't demanded them be put on refrigerators and freezers, after, if then lose power and defrost, they can create some nice water puddles. Not all are frost free. I know MINE aren't! And let's add one to the stove too, that's 240V, at least my stove is. And yet, none of these items plugs are anywhere easily accessible! So I'd have to have a what, remote GFCI button somehow for these things? Sounds to me like someone had their head up their {or someones} backside on making that requirement code! They do. The removed the exclusion for dedicated (behind) Outlets like is behind my Garage freezer. They have gone absurd. My Gas Dyryer can not share the CIRCUIT with the washer. Gee! It has run fine for 35 years: never tripped the breaker or GFCI. This is all about selling more and more expensive HW. Note I have 13 @ GFCI Outlets (and a bunch of protected down stream) that I voluntarily put in (they force upgrades when you apply for any building permits), because I believe in covering those places. I have CO detecters in the 2 rooms that have combustion devices, inter connected Smoke detectors in all bedroom. I WILL NOT put 3 smoke detectors in the Halls (by definition) within 6 feet of each other.
marcmiller04 Posted December 1, 2018 Author Posted December 1, 2018 The code has gotten way ridiculous... Finished a basement last year and had to double up gfci and afci protection on all circuits... so an AFCI breaker, with the first plug being gfci... The homeowner called me in a rage because his coffee maker tripped the circuit every time. I've seen plenty of people by the breakers and then return them after the inspection. On another note, I've got a friend of a friend who is on the code making committee, as a person who fights to get erroneous and ridiculous code removed from the books
k6ccc Posted December 1, 2018 Posted December 1, 2018 38 minutes ago, TheDucks said: (they force upgrades when you apply for any building permits) That depends on the jurisdiction. Earlier this year, I took out a permit to replace my main breaker panel, upgrade the service from 100 to 200 amps, add a new 100 amp sub-panel in the garage, and completely re-wire the garage. I specifically asked the inspector if this was going to trigger adding AFCI to the existing circuits. He said no. Of course the new circuits in the garage had to have GFCI, and I did have to bring the grounds for the main and sub panels up to current standards. BTW, all that work had nothing to do with my show. I have wanted to add the sub-panel to the garage for years, but the driving force was adding 9KW of solar and not wanting it to go into my ancient Zinsco panel (and besides, there was no room in the old panel).
TheDucks Posted December 1, 2018 Posted December 1, 2018 14 minutes ago, k6ccc said: That depends on the jurisdiction. Earlier this year, I took out a permit to replace my main breaker panel, upgrade the service from 100 to 200 amps, add a new 100 amp sub-panel in the garage, and completely re-wire the garage. I specifically asked the inspector if this was going to trigger adding AFCI to the existing circuits. He said no. Of course the new circuits in the garage had to have GFCI, and I did have to bring the grounds for the main and sub panels up to current standards. BTW, all that work had nothing to do with my show. I have wanted to add the sub-panel to the garage for years, but the driving force was adding 9KW of solar and not wanting it to go into my ancient Zinsco panel (and besides, there was no room in the old panel). The only thing worse than Zinsco is FPE. and I was a fan of Zinsco because the had that flipable bus selection. Seen some nasty looking breakers removde, usually in pieces because the sides turned brown and crumbled.
Orville Posted December 1, 2018 Posted December 1, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, marcmiller04 said: The code has gotten way ridiculous... Finished a basement last year and had to double up gfci and afci protection on all circuits... so an AFCI breaker, with the first plug being gfci... The homeowner called me in a rage because his coffee maker tripped the circuit every time. I've seen plenty of people by the breakers and then return them after the inspection. On another note, I've got a friend of a friend who is on the code making committee, as a person who fights to get erroneous and ridiculous code removed from the books I have an Uncle that is an electrician and owns his own company, he said the worst invention ever is the AFCI outlets, he says that he's had thousands of complaints on them, folks that set up a home office had issues with their computer being plugged into one and constantly tripping, causing them to lose hundred, thousands or million dollar accounts they were working on, or just someone like us that lost tons of data after an hour or so of work and the thing tripped off. If I had to have one of those on my show/sequencing computer, I'd be constantly losing work if I couldn't keep the dadburn AFCI from tripping just because the littlest little spike would trip it. My Uncle says they are way too sensitive, overly sensitive and they shouldn't be used at all, GFCI's are fine, but he said this is going a bit overboard. They need to correct this severe sensitivity issue if they expect folks NOT to complain about them, because they trip far too easily on some of the most simplistic appliances that are brand new out of the box. toasters, coffee makers, countertop ice makers. Just about anything you plug into, even a household lamp y0u just bought, turn it on, and POP it trips. He had them all throughout a new home he had bought, and he removed every one of them. I think Florida actually smartened up, and I don't believe they are part of the code here any longer. Because they just didn't work out because of how sensitive they were to something like just turning on an appliance and POP, off it went, taking everything else out with it that was downstream of it. And complaints were constantly mounting against their use. But GFCI on dedicated circuits is a bit ridiculous too, my dryer is electric, but 240V, the outlet is IN the floor and the dryers power cord would have to be MUCH, MUCH Longer to reach an GFCI outlet where I could easily access it. So I guess all those "short corded" appliances will also need new cords, like dishwashers, refrigerators, freezers and such since most times these have very short cords because they are designed to go into a dedicated outlet specifically for their use, so they don't have very long cords on them, just enough to get to the outlet they need to be in. And if they want to push new code like that on someone upgrading their homes power system, then adding and changing those outlets should be ON THE IDIOTIC MORON that defined and made this a Code that has to be followed, as ridiculously stupid as that code is. I get sick and tired of folks, like government messing with things like TV and Clocks, when they changed TV to digital only and changed the date to end daylight savings time, why should I pay for these idiotic rules by having to go out and buy a new HD TV or a New Clock because now it won;t automatically change on the correct date? I think folks in government or other areas that create these changes or codes should be the DOOFUS's to PAY for OUR REPLACEMENTS when they do such stupid enforcement of making changes1 i know, it'll never happen, but that's how IT SHOULD WORK! P.S. Wow, did this thread get royally hijacked from it's original content? Or what? LOL Edited December 1, 2018 by Orville
marcmiller04 Posted December 2, 2018 Author Posted December 2, 2018 10 hours ago, Orville said: i know, it'll never happen, but that's how IT SHOULD WORK! P.S. Wow, did this thread get royally hijacked from it's original content? Or what? LOL Haha, it sure did get jacked, but that's ok. It was healthy discussion
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