Led lights and Lor 2

[Ralph D]

I'm Just wondering when led's will function right on lor? I happen to like useing them but only certain kinds will work as of right now, so is this question to go under wish-list stuff or is it ok here. and can anyone explain the detailed reason why most led's dont work on lor? and why there are other boards that do. I asking only because id like to know why some types of leds work with lor and some dont and understand why this is happening and when it might be fixed. or will it be fixed?

Ralph

[JimCanfield]

From what I have read it has to do with half wave and full wave LED's. I think the half wave sets do not work as well. I will let the experts explain why. I could try but I am sure I will mess it up.

[Denny]

We probably need a little more information here. What type of LEDs are you having the problem with? Are they the strings with the screw in replacement bulbs such as C7 or C9? -- or are they the ones that are permanently wired into the string? Are you using the LED floodlights such as MR16? Since you are asking the question in the LOR II Forum, I assume you are using LOR II, not LOR I, but which version?

[taybrynn]

Full wave is certainly better and brighter than half wave.

My understanding is that all LED lights generally work just fine, ** almost all types.

** The notable exception are the LED lights with removable bulbs. This is mainly C9 LED(s) retrofit bulbs with removable bulbs and possible some C7(s) ... but most C7 LEDS are not removable.

They technically DO work ... but I've heard they die an early death within a year or two ... because the on/off from LOR is hard on them somehow. Most folks selling the retrofit C9 bulbs indicate that they are for 'static displays only' ... in other words, they are not LOT compatible.

But If you buy an LED C9 with non-removable bulbs, it should be ok. So some C9 LEDS are ok and some are not ... but my understanding is that the non-removable are fine and removable are not.

Most people seem to be using the C6, M5, C7 LED bulbs just fine.

THe best of these are purchased from creativedisplays, which offers a group buy once per year ... but had passed already for this year. But you can buy at the regular prices all year long. Those are full wave LEDs. Most of what you find in retail stores is only half wave, but most would still work with LOR.

[Ralph D]

Hey everyone, first i like to say thanks for the input. its nice to know when i really need help someone is willing to try.

OK i have been using LED's going on my fifth season now, c9's being the permanent type and the same with my c7 as well. and let me say this i have not blown a c6 yet in four years. now i have lost c6's but not blown um. i have blown the little transformers on the light string but never a c6 in 4 seasons.

but on the other hand id say 90 percent every year if not more , and we all know how cheep leds are. of my c7's and c9's blow because of the light-o-rama and the led thing. yes... c7's and c9's screw in type for me do not work right. all they do is turn on and turn off, no dimming, twinkling nothing. and i am using the new light-o-rama 2 update. I know this is a light-o-orma thing but why? what makes it a issue? why is this something that isn't fixed.

now, i know i could go back to mini-lights and glass c7's and c9's but i like my LED's and i want to be able to use the thousands of of full wave lights i bought that just sit in the garage as well. i know its my own fault to have bought them bla bal bal. for me this is a big stumbling point i cant turn back from, right now i have 9 boxes but this season i need 9 more. after this season i will have between to 16 to 18, 16 channel LOR controllers of the 30 amp kind. if this is something thats not going to be looked at, id like to know. is LOR or does anyone out there have a real fix to this.

I have read some interesting things about upcoming possible changes to protocol from the LOR world lately, is this a possibility that the changes will fix the Lor and led problem? and will these changes come anytime soon? ....before the 2008 season. I know the LOR team does not like to quote dates and guarantee anything but again this particular issue is not a new one, Ive been talking about it for 3 years now and i know i'm not the only one using LED's at this point. I personally feel it holds us all back in a way from improving the quality of our shows and displays. So i will out right just ask the question. Will the upcoming changes to lor fix this problem with using LED's?


Please don't get me wrong i love my LOR system and this is why I've invested so much time and money into it, i feel its just time for the lor gods to improve on this issue, this one little issue.

I really hope my dreams of "walkin in a lor-led wonder land" sorry for the pun i couldn't help my self. has not pissed anyone off. its not what i intended at all. i just wanted you guys to here my voice because I know... you have listened to others in the past and i hope mine can get herd now.

your thoughts are greatly welcome,

Thanks

Ralph Deweil


ps. is it my pc or it there something wrong with the sig-tags i cant see any. all i am getting are little x's in the left cornor? anyone

[DanglinModifiers]

I think it actually has to do more with the LEDs than LOR. The replacement type, screw in C9s and C7s run off 120V. Each bulb then needs it's own set of resistors to make it work. I think by design, these type LEDs were made to run at full power, and never intended to be dimmed, which is why most vendors state that. The non-replacement C7s and C9s have resistors and rectifiers for the whole strand, and these were designed to be dimmed.

When I decided to upgrade to LED C7s, I bit the build and bought all new stings, rather than the replacements to make sure I had a product designed to work with animation. I think this is the route one has to go, until the LED manufactures come up with a replacement bulb that can handle dimming and rapid on/off.

Seems to me asking LOR to fix this problem is like asking the power company to stop your household lightbulbs from burning out so often.

[LightORamaDan]

Ralph D wrote:

[snip] c7's and c9's screw in type for me do not work right. all they do is turn on and turn off, no dimming, twinkling nothing. and i am using the new light-o-rama 2 update. I know this is a light-o-orma thing but why? what makes it a issue? why is this something that isn't fixed. [snip]

We do our best to make sure that we tell people that LOR does not work well with the replacement C7 and C9 LED bulbs.

The issue with the C7 and C9 LED bulbs is that they are designed not to dim. Each individual bulb has a little circuit board in the base that has components in it to control the current to the bulbs. This circuit board makes it almost impossible to dim the LEDs using standard triac based dimming technology.

Another problem with the C7 and C9 LED bulbs is that they can be damaged by harmonics on the power line. Those harmonics can be created anytime a circuit it switched on or off. The harmonics look to the LED bulbs as if the frequency (60hz) is actually faster AND the bulb's circuit uses that frequency to help control the current sent to the LEDs. At a faster frequency more current is sent to the bulb. Dimming is accomplished by turning the bulb on/off rapidly so you can see why dimming will damage the bulbs.

If you do try to dim a replacement LED bulb you will sometimes see that at certain intensities they get "bright" and it is at those times the bulb's LEDs are damaged. So if you do use the LED replacement bulbs with LOR, keep it to On/Off and turn them on/off as infrequently as is possible.

Due to the design of the replacement LED it is unlikely that existing LOR controllers will ever be able to work well with the replacement LEDs. We are looking into attempting to do so but no promises. I recently had a very productive meeting with the President of the company that manufactures most of the replacement LED bulbs in use. We have agreed to work together to come to some resolution on this issue.

Dan

[Ralph D]

Dan, I have to say thank you. even tho its not the greatest answer for me never the less all i wanted was an answer thanks. But id like to add to this im not using replacement c7 and c9's they as i know now don't work at all with lor and again not blaming you. I'm using the permanent kind 1/2 wave i think. like i said above most of my c7 and c9's blow each year now this year, don't know why not as many blew. so im guessing i can take from what you said above and apply the same thinking to my permanent styal c7's and c9's.

Right?

Thanks Dan,

Ralph

Dan also i wanted you to know i pm you the on something eals the day before yesterday.

[LightORamaDan]

I do not know what these particular C7s and C9s are... If you have some that are damaged and you don't need send them to us to take a look. I have not heard of any issues with the regular LEDs that people get like C6s and others at places like Kmart/HomeDepot etc.....

[John]

Ralph D wrote:

ps. is it my pc or it there something wrong with the sig-tags i cant see any. all i am getting are little x's in the left corner? anyone

The person hosting those images has not renewed their web site so the provider has taken the web site down. You can see that by going to their web site HERE.
If you want images in your signature now, you will need to link them from your own web host or an image hosting web site that you upload the images to.

[cattlefarmboy]

i have gotten c7 led this year to replace the 800 lights on the fence, they are 120v group in 100 each, for 8 channels, blue, yellow, red, green. i tested them the other night with controllers with 9 led bulb, with all the effects. the only thing that happen after i tested them, i plug them up to the wall without controllers, the green led bulbs would be flickering and the other would be on. have anyone heard of this or it is just me that it has happen to anything would help

[LightORamaDan]

cattlefarmboy wrote:

i have gotten c7 led this year to replace the 800 lights on the fence, they are 120v group in 100 each, for 8 channels, blue, yellow, red, green. i tested them the other night with controllers with 9 led bulb, with all the effects. the only thing that happen after i tested them, i plug them up to the wall without controllers, the green led bulbs would be flickering and the other would be on. have anyone heard of this or it is just me that it has happen to anything would help

With the replacement C7 and C9 bulbs, we can only recommend ON/OFF. The current replacement (retro) LEDs on the market are by design, a poor match for light controllers.

[Tim Fischer]

Sneaking a feature request in here... And I've mentioned this before, but...

It would be really nice if, in the channel config, you could specify "On/Off" only for a particular channel. You don't want to be fading, twinkling, or shimmering (or setting intensities on) things like CFL's or LED retrofits or motors or the like... One small programming error (clicking in an errant cell) could spell the end for an expensive device connected to an LED channel (e.g. Zap strobe unit).

I know LOR recommends only incandescent lights (and some LED's) be connected to channels, but people use other things as well, and most of them would work fine so long as they receive ONLY full voltage or none at all.

So basically, I'm asking for the ability to set a channel as "nothing but on or off". If someone tried to place a fade in it or other illegal event, it would either ignore it, or convert it to an on/off event as appropirate. It would be even nicer if this were apparent in the sequence editor (e.g. I wouldn't be allowed to add fades on such channels, and existing ones were removed upon changing the config from 'normal' to 'on/off only')

Thanks for listening

-Tim

[John Hertig]

This may or may not be related to this subject, but haven't I heard that the LOR channels expect a 'real' load and that plugging in 'just 1 LED string' sometimes does not work well? The solution being to add a 'load', either non-LED bulb or a 'terminator'?

[Denny]

John Hertig wrote:

This may or may not be related to this subject, but haven't I heard that the LOR channels expect a 'real' load and that plugging in 'just 1 LED string' sometimes does not work well? The solution being to add a 'load', either non-LED bulb or a 'terminator'?

John,

I think that was true in one of the versions of LOR 1 (S1), but I think Dan corrected that glitch with S@.

[Richard Hamilton]

John Hertig wrote:

This may or may not be related to this subject, but haven't I heard that the LOR channels expect a 'real' load and that plugging in 'just 1 LED string' sometimes does not work well? The solution being to add a 'load', either non-LED bulb or a 'terminator'?

I don't think so. I have run numerous channels (such as the Megatree) with just one string of lights on each channel. It only takes a few watts of load... and a single string of LEDs will provide that... assumming they are full-wave, or half-wave with a 1/4 watt snubber.