Copyright Question

[scodavis]

I am asking this question specifically about CCR tree sequences purchased from HolidaySequences.com, and I'd like some clarification on their copyright policies.  On their website, they state, "You may copy effects from theses sequences into your own sequences. You are not licensed to share, sell, or trade any sequences purchased from this site, including custom sequences."

So obviously if I purchased a sequence from them, I cannot resell it, which makes perfect sense.  They do, however, state that we are allowed to copy effects from those sequences to our own sequences (for example, to use an image of Santa or whatever).

My question, then, is this - if I use images from one of their sequences as part of a sequence I am making otherwise from scratch, will I be in violation of their copyright policy if I sell the resulting sequence that I create?

Thank you!

[k6ccc]

I'm not a lawyer, don't play on on TV, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I would assume the answer is that yes you would be in violation of their copyright policy.

 

[B.Y.R.G.]

Curious as to what the final answer will be.

Edited March 25, 2016 by B.Y.R.G.

[k6ccc]

To clarify what I was saying, you can do anything you want with it for yourself.  It becomes a problem if you sell it so someone else.

 

[debtoews]

K6ccc- just curious so if you make a total new sequence and use some of the images someone else did off a purchased sequence thats a copy-write infringement if you sell the sequence?

[k6ccc]

As I said, I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV, so take this for whatever it's worth...  If you are using a portion of someone elses work it gets into a gray area of what constitutes using someone elses work.  I know there have been some very high profile lawsuits in the music industry over a few words or notes.  So I can't answer the question when talking about a few pixels.  However as I understood the original question, if I bought a pixel tree sequence (generally that means 1800 or 2400 channels), and added my own stuff around it and then sold it, the majority of what I was selling would be someone elses work.  That's a copyright violation.

Now here's where it get's even more interesting.  Let's say you buy someone elses sequence and then hire me to do the customization for your yard.  I would assume that would be fine.  However the end customer is the one that bought the original pixel tree sequence has the rights to it.  I could not take the purchased sequence and use it in someone elses yard customization (unless they also bought it from the author of that sequence).

Clear as mud?

 

[ebrown1972]

5 hours ago, scodavis said:

I am asking this question specifically about CCR tree sequences purchased from HolidaySequences.com, and I'd like some clarification on their copyright policies.  On their website, they state, "You may copy effects from theses sequences into your own sequences. You are not licensed to share, sell, or trade any sequences purchased from this site, including custom sequences."

So obviously if I purchased a sequence from them, I cannot resell it, which makes perfect sense.  They do, however, state that we are allowed to copy effects from those sequences to our own sequences (for example, to use an image of Santa or whatever).

My question, then, is this - if I use images from one of their sequences as part of a sequence I am making otherwise from scratch, will I be in violation of their copyright policy if I sell the resulting sequence that I create?

Thank you!

I would just ask the guys at holidaysequences and see what they say.

[scodavis]

Hello, everyone that participated in this discussion...

I can now provide clarification, as I got a call from Holiday Sequences a little while ago (I had also submitted my question through their website).  They were very friendly and were able to explain things to me.

Their policy is quite clear and makes a lot of sense - we are free to use their images to create a sequence for our own personal display, but if we sell that sequence we are committing copyright infringement and are liable for a lawsuit.  If we want to sell a sequence, we must create all artwork ourselves (or use existing artwork that has no copyright).

It is no different than if you were to publish a book and use photographs - even though every word in the book is written by you, a lawsuit can still be brought about if you don't get permission for every non-public-domain photograph used in the book.

-Scott

Edited March 26, 2016 by scodavis
Clarification

[Old Sarge]

I wonder what their answer would be if you bought a seq from them and said you wanted a copy of their copyright number to go with it to prove it was actually copy written by them.

Doesn't most things you purchase have a label on it with the copy write number or a label saying the copy write is pending?

Also how is it that they say it is copy write material when they sale the work of the people who make the sequences on their site for the ones who make it.. are they getting the copy write based on others work and calling it theirs etc..

 

If you run a business and set up a display and show for someone else arent you in violation of copy write laws if you run a show and play music there that they didnt actually purchase for use?

Why not just forget about it... do it and see what happens.. copy write people cant be like your next door neighbors and see and hear everything you do and the FCC cant be everyplace at the same time..  Get into the deep technical details about it and no matter what you do if you are sharing your music with others... if people driving by or walking in front of your house can hear it and stop to listen to it it can be called a copy write case.... Just be thankful there are not a lot of people complaining about hearing your music to their copy write lawyers.....LOL

so they have registered copy writes for every sequence they sale on their site... I wonder how it is possible to get copy writes so fast when it takes years for most to get approved as each has to be checked, verified and registered before a copy write being granted for most things.

 

also arent you violating a copy write law anyway if you are playing your music in a way that others can listen to it without paying for it.. especially if you are broadcasting it even if you bought it off amazon or some other place... and how are you going to be able to keep proof of every song you have ever purchased..

 

[k6ccc]

Sarge,  You are thinking of patents, not copyrights.  Copyrights take very little.  For example, every day the Los Angeles Times prints a newspaper.  Every word in it is copyrighted before you can buy it at a news stand or it gets delivered to your driveway.  Same thing with a TV news broadcast.  Before you could record it and think about doing something with it, it's copyrighted.  About all it takes is stating that it is copyrighted.  For example, I am looking at the user manual for a Light-O-Rama CMB24D 24 channel controller that happens to be sitting on my desk.  The bottom line on the front of the manual is "Copyright © Light O Rama, Inc 2013".  That's all it takes...  At the bottom of every page on my lightshow website there is the following:  Copyright © 2013 - 2016 by Jim Walls.  All rights reserved.

Done...

Now defending a copyright in court may take more effort because copyright law takes volumes, but for our purposes, it's pretty simple.

As mentioned above, I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV so take this for what it's worth...

 

 

[Dcroc]

Sarge, I hold many copyrights, and a few trademarks.  If you are my employee, and create something while on my payroll, it is mine. However, I am sure Bill Gates would argue the point. Usually, there are clauses in an employee/employer contract that cover this. Bottom line is, even though it was your work that produced it, it was my dollar that funded it.  You were given an agreed amount of compensation for the work you did, and I, in return, got the work I paid for. This can be challenged in court, and often is, but any smart company/employer knows to cover their butts on this.

    As far as sequences go, I would think that the music is the only real issue, unless someone is selling a good deal of copyrighted sequence being sold by someone.  For the most part, it's not worth the effort it would take to shut them down, unless it's a large scale operation.

 

K6ccc, what you are suggesting is referred to as "the poor mans copyright".  When I use to write a song, I would mail a recorded copy, as well as a written copy of the lyrics, to myself, and leave it sealed. In theory, I could produce this sealed, and dated document in court to challenge anyones claim to a copyright on it as long as my sealed copy was dated before the other persons copyright application. Unfortunately, the law often falls in favor of the party with the most expensive lawyer, and I would not trust such an action today, as the industry has created a lot of grey areas in this matter in the last decade or so. Also, once you publish something it throws another wrench into the works, and depending on how you publish it.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Dcroc

[bobschm]

It gets greyer still. There is something called "fair use". If you were to produce a satire or comedy version of a sequence you bought, you might fall under this umbrella. Likewise, using it as an example in a training course. But these are grey areas. If the copyright holder goes after you, you might not prevail. Think "Disney".

But for the most part, if you profit off the copyrighted work of others then you are in violation.

[lightzilla]

I figured something like this would be asked. I think Brian created the Superstar software for all to use.   I too can do moving characters in Superstar, I can have rolling eyes, a moving mouth, storm clouds, lighting, planes flying & so on and I don't buy any of Holidays sequences and so on.  I do not think images can be copyrighted when it comes to being created in Superstar, or x-lights etc. If that was the case then all of us that create & share or sell are guilty of using some effect that was created by someone. 

Take Mary Did You Know. I gave a free version out (now I modified it since , since I to am going to be selling the work I created) & I released it before Holiday & I created Mary Holding the  baby Jesus & you will see her at the end holding the baby , they to have it at the end but their Mary & baby is a bit different. Now I created Mary first so would it be copyrighted, so can Mary & the baby be used again? The same with the inchworm effect, Frack created it & so can it be used again? If no then we are all in trouble, the same goes with Mary & the baby.  I used morphs to make a flowing river (you can see in Snoopy's Christmas) can that be copyrighted?

You should see the effect I came out with in the 22 minute sequence on "How The Grinch Stole Christmas"....I never saw the effect before & so if it wasn't done before then should I copyright it?

Wowlights created sequences with a piano player with a bobbing head perhaps before others & now  others have piano players with bobbing heads

We are going a bit overboard when we start copyrighting animated characters created in Superstar or x-lights, or LSP etc which were created for all of us to use, which many of us paid for.

The point of not sharing, selling, trading etc makes sense because of the hard work that goes into making a sequence....... copyrighting images that was created in Superstar,that was created by Brian, does not make sense. If anyone owns rights then it is Brian.

Ps......Since I stated that I was selling the ccr  sequences that I am creating I might as well let you know that I touched up some of the sequences & I am working with another forum member. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 26, 2016 by lightzilla

[Don]

2 hours ago, lightzilla said:

The point of not sharing, selling, trading etc makes sense because of the hard work that goes into making a sequence....... copyrighting images that was created in Superstar,that was created by Brian, does not make sense. If anyone owns rights then it is Brian.

Unless there is a clause in the software, the person who created the work holds the copyright.

I don't think Microsoft holds the copyright one works you create in Word/Excel, etc. Audio mixer makers do not own the audio copyright of songs recorded with their equipment. You create a web site using WordPress, Joomla or any other system, you own the copyright to the work created. Your web hosting provider does not own your data, you do. You may have created it on their site, but the copyright is yours.

If someone creates an original image, or one that doesn't have a copyright claim to that image, inside of SuperStar, then the person who creates it owns the copyright, not Brian or Light-O-Rama.

[lightzilla]

4 hours ago, Don said:

Unless there is a clause in the software, the person who created the work holds the copyright.

I don't think Microsoft holds the copyright one works you create in Word/Excel, etc. Audio mixer makers do not own the audio copyright of songs recorded with their equipment. You create a web site using WordPress, Joomla or any other system, you own the copyright to the work created. Your web hosting provider does not own your data, you do. You may have created it on their site, but the copyright is yours.

If someone creates an original image, or one that doesn't have a copyright claim to that image, inside of Super Star, then the person who creates it owns the copyright, not Brian or Light-O-Rama.

 In Canada like the US anything like music, sequences, websites, etc that we create is automatically copyrighted. I guess we alter the image in colour & maybe in the face & all should be o k. Like I said I created a Mary with a baby in Mary did you know & so as long as the image is altered then all is good ....since it is not the exactly like the original image I like created anymore.

 The point is that the software was designed for all to use. Somehow we are forgetting that. Whether you or me or Holiday or any of the many others who use Superstar & sell, share, personal use etc are going to create guitar players, piano players, & countless other animated characters and we will all cross into some territories.

Oh well life goes on.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 27, 2016 by lightzilla

[Old Sarge]

http://copyright.gov/circs/factsheet.html

 

I just read some of the rules... but really... how many people that has  made sequences have actually truly copy written them.... It isn't free to get a copy write.

 

It is not automatically copy written either as soon as you create/make it.

A LEGAL COPYRITE is registered with the gov. and a certificate is issued with your copy write number on it as well as registered with the library of congress..

So... if you have not actually paid to register what you have done and have got a number for it you do not have copy written material.. ..

Edited March 28, 2016 by Old Sarge

[Don]

12 minutes ago, Old Sarge said:

http://copyright.gov/circs/factsheet.html

 

I just read some of the rules... but really... how many people that has  made sequences have actually truly copy written them.... It isn't free to get a copy write.

 

It is not automatically copy written either as soon as you create/make it.

A LEGAL COPYRITE is registered with the gov. and a certificate is issued with your copy write number on it as well as registered with the library of congress..

So... if you have not actually paid to register what you have done and have got a number for it you do not have copy written material.. ..

http://copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html#mywork

Read this page. 

Your work is protected the moment you create it. However, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of copyrighted work, you must register the work.

 

[scodavis]

On 3/28/2016 at 10:02 PM, Don said:

http://copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html#mywork

Read this page. 

Your work is protected the moment you create it. However, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of copyrighted work, you must register the work.

 

True, but most people don't have the money to fight a lawsuit, even if it is not technically legal.  I know I sure don't.