Trouble with Show Computer

[LORisAwesome]

Hi

 

I'm having some trouble with my show computer.  It is an older computer running windows xp.

 

A week ago I turned it on to see if I could see all the controllers in the HU.  As soon as I keyed in the password, it shut down.  When I turned it back on, I got a message that said that it was shut down due to the CPU overheating.  When I keyed in the password, it shut down again.  Left it alone after that.

 

This computer sits most of the year without running, but it is left plugged in.  My initial thought was that maybe the CPU fan was not running.

 

Last night I took the computer down to the basement and set it up on a workbench.  I opened it up so that I could see what is going on inside.  I turned it on and saw that the CPU fan is running.  In fact, all the cooling fans were running.  It shut down again after I entered the password.  I started it again, got the same message, but, this time, it did not shut down.  I fooled with it for 5-10 minutes with no problems, and shut it down.  I came back later and tried it again, still no problem.  Did this again a few hours later with no problems.

 

Now I'm not sure if I should try to use it for the season, take it somewhere and have it looked at, or try to replace it.

 

Anyone have any suggestions?

[LOR Staff]

You have a dirty computer!  

 

If the fans are running, you most likely have dirty heat sinks.  You'll need to take the computer apart and clean those heat sinks with compressed air.  It's not hard, but doing it without breaking anything can be difficult without the experience.  

 

If it is a laptop and you have never taken one apart before, this is not the place to start.  Bite the (probably) $150 bullet and have someone do it for you.  If it is a desktop, you may get away with watching some videos on how to remove the fan from the CPU, removing the CPU from the board, and removing the heat sink from the CPU.  Again, this can be tricky, and you'll have to clean and properly re-thermal grease the CPU.

 

Be careful just shooting random air into a computer.  At high pressures you can rip components off the board.  Some chemical air (canned air) can actually ruin PC boards.

[Ebuechner]

If you were to try anything on your own. One of the most common points of failure on a computer besides cooling is the power supply. But my opinion would be replace the computer to have peace of mind. If you're like most of the people the computer will probably cost you less than what you have in controllers and lights. I'm assuming you made sure that all the cooling fins were clean.

[LORisAwesome]

I built the computer from parts that I bought.  Including installing the CPU, Heat sink, CPU fan, Memory, etc.  The CPU is an Intel Pentium -- an early dual core probably bought it around 2005-2006.  I don't remember if the CPU fan/heat sink came already attached to the CPU or if I had to assemble it.

 

It didn't look dirty to me, but I couldn't see the CPU heat sink -- the fan is on top of it.

 

There is a place I can take it, but I'm not sure how long they will take to go over it.  I'd like to have the display running by Thanksgiving.

[wmilkie]

Perhaps this is obvious, but did you spread a thin film of heat sink compound between the cpu and the heatsink when you assembled it?

 

Course, you can't see it now

 

 

 

.

[Ebuechner]

If you built it yourself you would have had to put the heatsink onto the CPU. It sounds as though you're not that experienced. One thing I saw a novice do when they built a computer was not taking the plastic off the bottom of the heat sink before installing it onto the CPU. If you pull the heatsink off the CPU you do so by wiggling it in a twisting fashion to lift it off. (Of course you have to undo the latches first) Then inspect that the bottom of the heatsink is clean and no obstructions such as the plastic I mentioned. And as was mentioned put thermal compound on and reinstall.

[LORisAwesome]

I just don't remember.  If I did attach the heat sink and fan to the CPU, I'm sure I applied heat sink compound. 

 

This computer was used daily for many years, and has been my show computer for the last two seasons.  This just started.  I would think there would have been heat problems all along if the heat sink and fan were not properly assembled.

 

I thought the cooling fans worked better when the machine is closed.

 

What I can't understand -- why did the problem seem to vanish when I put it on the bench and opened it up?  Murphy's law?  lol

 

 

Jerry

[Ebuechner]

You have nothing to lose trying to clean it up. I use an air compressor outside to clean mine. Just make sure you don't spin the fans with the air too fast they will explode I just put my finger on them to keep them from spinning. If you're going to spend a 100 plus dollars I think it would be better spent on a new computer. And most computers will run cooler with the case open

[k6ccc]

I'm gonna go along with the dirty theory.  I have two computers here that run 24x7x365 - my show computer and my server.  I take both out once a year (along with the non 24x7x365 computers) and blow them out with fairly low pressure compressed air.  It's amazing how much dust will come out of a computer that looks fairly clean.  The other thing I do is reseat every connection that I can - cable connections to the motherboard, cable connections to drives, and the RAM chips.

 

To answer why it ran better when you opened it up, is most likely because it was NOT getting the airflow it was supposed to when closed.

[PhilMassey]

Going with the dirt theory but also check that the heat sink is firmly strapped down to the CPU. It could have worked or got knocked loose. If by chance it has, you might want to re-pot it with fresh thermal paste.

[EmmienLightFan]

I just had to reapply thermal compound to a CPU because it was overheating doing more taxing things such as gaming and rendering videos. It fixed it and has not crashed since.

[Ebuechner]

http://www.merlinsltd.com/WebRoot/StoreLGB/Shops/62030553/512F/D7AB/C081/F840/F914/C0A8/28BB/377B/fugure_gremlin_green_close.png. I'm betting this is your problem

[LORisAwesome]

I got the Heat sink and fan off last night.  The Heat sink attaches to the motherboard over the CPU.  The heat sink was dirty, I blew it out with my shop-vac.

 

I re-applied heat sink compound and with some difficulty re-installed the fan and heat sink.  It worked fine on the bench, so I closed it back up and took it back upstairs and hooked it up. 

 

Upstairs I turned it on, and as soon as I keyed in the password, it shut down again.  Same message - said it shut down due to overheating.

 

I did get into the BIOS, and looked at temps.  I watched the CPU temp climb from 58c to 60c over the period of a minute of so.  I'm not sure what the normal operating temp of the CPU is though.

 

Jerry 

[Ebuechner]

That is on the high side. Take a look at your fan configuration. And where you put the CPU. Make sure it's not trying to recycle the air coming out. Your power supply fan will be blowing out you need some air coming in to the case. For every one fan removing air from the inside of the case you need one bringing air back in. I try to install a fresh air fan on the front of the case or opposite of the power supply. Many computers are designed with a fresh air fan inches from the power supply. This is not the way to do it most cases they're bringing heated air back into the case. This could be why it ran better with the cover off. Another thing to look for considering the age of the computer. Look at the tops of the capacitors on the motherboard and other components. If they're looking like they're bulging out on the top give up and get a different computer that's a sign of failure.

[LORisAwesome]

The case has a fan on the power supply, and one that pulls air out of the case which is just below the power supply.  There is no inlet fan.

 

I'm not sure I got the heat sink back on correctly.  It has plastic prongs which fit into holes in the mother board, once the prongs are inserted into the motherboard, they need to be turned about 90 degrees with a screwdriver.  I had a lot of difficulty getting the prongs into the MB holes. The heat sink may not be making proper contact with the CPU.  I am also not sure about the heat sink compound that I have.  Maybe a special type is needed - dunno.

 

At this point, it is probably beyond my capability to repair.  The local repair shop wants $70 an hour to look at it.  I don't think it is worth it at this point, when I see one at Micro Center that should do the job nicely for about $280...

 

Jerry

[LOR Staff]

Unfortunately you are absolutely correct.  It is usually cheaper to replace than to repair.

 

The good news is that with a new computer you should be able to 'slave' in your old HD and then copy all your stuff off it (like sequences/etc) if needed.

 

Even a new cheap laptop now-a-days is more than enough to run a display.

[PhilMassey]

The heat sink must be tight to the CPU. Use a very thin layer of paste, and make sure it is spread over the entire contact area.

Clean and preferably polish the mating surfaces before applying compound. I clean with solvent and polish with auto rubbing compound,then clean off any polish residue with more solvent.

Practice the fitment of everything with it "dry" before going for real with thermal compound. Good luck.

[wmilkie]

at least on my computer, normal cpu temp never goes above 50C unless i'm running something  cpu intensive; normal temp usually runs about 35-40c. This is with stock fan

 

could be your cpu fan is going/gone bad

 

If its overheating before you even load windows, seems to me its something with the cpu installation; either heatsink compound not making good contact(lots of videos on how to put heatsink compound on cpu), maybe bad contact of cpu and heatsink or fan problems.

 

Did you clean all the old cpu grease off before you put new compound on? Clean off both cpu and heat sink? You can't put new on old, must clean off old first

 

spread small amount cpu compound across cpu and heatsink. Don't glob it on or use too much;

 

google: applying heat sink compound to cpu

 

http://www.pcworld.com/article/246577/how_to_install_a_cpu_cooler.html

 

 

this is how I do it:

remove fan and heat sink

while cpu still in socket, VERY CAREFULLY clean off old residue on cpu, alchol and some lint free wipe or qtip; make sure top is really clean

repeat on bottom of heat sink

re apply small amount grease on cpu; I use a small piece of say cardboard to spread it across, or some videos suggest a small glob in center of cpu

I've found if you put a glob on cpu, you don't need to do it on the heat sink, but if you spread a thin layer on cpu, I also repeat that thin layer on the heat sink

 

replace heat sink and fan assy

make sure heat sink is making good contact with cpu, even pressure all around

some stock cpu fans/coolers  usually have 4 locking tabs on top of fan assy, carefully  make sure they are locked in and heat sink is sitting on cpu evenly

 

start up bios, monitor cpu temp

 

If everything is done correctly, you shouldn't see much of a rise in cpu temp above 50c, 

 

If you still see a rise, you're cpu fan could be going bad. I've seen that lots of times, gets dirty, spins slowly but still spins

 

You could try replacing the cpu fan, they can wear out.  I've had some go bad on work computers

The heat sink must be tight to the CPU. Use a very thin layer of paste, and make sure it is spread over the entire contact area.

Clean and preferably polish the mating surfaces before applying compound. I clean with solvent and polish with auto rubbing compound,then clean off any polish residue with more solvent.

Practice the fitment of everything with it "dry" before going for real with thermal compound. Good luck.

beat me to it

Edited November 11, 2015 by wmilkie

[Ebuechner]

One more thing to consider while putting on the cover and moving it around that a wire didn't drop down and prevent the fan from spinning. Make sure that all of your cabling is strapped away from the CPU. Remember one of the clues he gave us was it ran fine with the cover off. That's why I think It's a ventilation problem.

[LORisAwesome]

Thanks all for trying to help.

 

I gave up on it, I went to Micro Center last night and got a new show computer and UPS.  I haven't set it up yet, but, it actually has more power than the old one.  Hopefully it will last many seasons.

 

I plan to put the latest version of LOR on it, and Zara Radio.  The old computer has music that I ripped from CD's that is used for Zara Radio.  I plan to transfer the music to my NAS.  My sequences are actually stored on the NAS, and another computer in the house that I use for sequencing. I'll just have to re-build the show and schedule.

 

Thanks again

 

Jerry