New to the Hobby, have a few questions

[JD123]

Hello all,

 

Just starting in this hobby and looking for a little advice.  I have been doing home automation for many years, and this just naturally fits!

I have not purchased anything yet, as I believe that a LOR sale is coming soon (any idea when?).  I’d like to get an equipment list and take advantage of lower prices to get started.  To get into the hobby, I thought I’d replace my existing incan lights with CCB’s and work out from there.  Currently I have lights along the roofline.  I will probably add a few mini trees, and maybe take a run at a few hanging snowflakes, etc.  I’d like to go RGB as much as possible.  For the first year I’m planning on keeping it simple.  To that end, I’m trying to plan the layout and have a few questions for the experts out there:

 

1) I have a chance to start over with the way I run the bulb strings.  Currently my lights are on 1x2 boards that are painted the same color as my trim.  I have installed hooks to make it easier to hang the boards with the lights on them. I am thinking of simply replacing the incan lights with CCB’s.  If you had it all to do over, are there preferred methods of hanging lights?  I want to make it simple to put them up each year and I’m no fan of hanging off the roof in winter (I live in Colorado),

 

2) With the old bulbs, I simply cut the strings to fit on the boards.  The boards ran evenly from the peak of the roof to the end of the roofline. With the CCB’s cutting segments to evenly match roof segments does not seem cost effective. I’m assuming it will void any warranties and cause power problems as well.  For the display, I’d like to have symmetrical patterns on each side of the roof peaks.  Does it make programming any more difficult to have strings not ending at the end of a roof segment, or going over the peak of the roof, instead of evenly on the roof segments? Maybe the software takes care of that for you?

 

3) Since I am considering remounting on boards, it would be best to cut the strings at the ends of the boards and put plugs at the end so they could be plugged together after they were put up.  The strings would continue from board to board, but be cut in the middle. Has anyone done that?  Does it void the warranty?  Any suggestions of recommended connectors?

 

4) What is the feeling on wireless?  My computer would be in my house and the furthest run would be maybe 150 feet away. Wireless would be easier, but I worry about reliability.  Any recommendations or good or bad experiences to share?

 

5) Is there any practical limit to the length of the data cable runs?  Can they just be daisy chained indefinitely?  Are there power issues when daisy chaining?

 

6) Would you recommend the Residential or Pro series controllers?

 

7) If the CCP’s are used to make a matrix display, are there only standard matrix dimensions supported, or can they be any dimension and the software takes care of the strings, bulb location, etc?

 

8) I’m planning on getting the LOR advanced software.  Would you also get Superstar to start out with? 

 

9) If you had a chance to start over again, what would you recommend, do different, are glad you did, etc…

 

Thanks! I have scanned the message board, but probably have asked some questions that have been asked elsewhere.  Apologies in advance!

 

[godman]

Welcome to the madness!

 

As far as the sale goes if memory serves me correct I think it was in April last year. Ill let some of the more experienced users answer your other questions,

 

Have fun!

[sonoma]

Is your main goal to use "SMART or Dumb nodes?  I don't know much about LOR CCB's but if you are looking to go With RGB the first year it might be wise to go Dumb nodes. Less programming and you can get a lot of cool effects. The folks @ Holidaycoro.com are a wealth of knowledge and how-to. This is my 7th year with LOR and only my 1st with RGB and not for the help from them it would have been a Disastrous disappointment. David Moore is a huge help for anyone getting into RGB. Here are a few samples of my first RGB projets.

 

 

I Hope this Helps!!!!!!

 

You can try the following links for some inspiration and help.

 

http://www.holidaycoro.com/kb_results.asp?ID=15

https://www.youtube.com/user/HolidayCoro/videos

http://www.holidaycoro.com/

Edited February 16, 2015 by sonoma

[mpageler]

My perspctive from 1 year in the LOR world.

First year was just 4 singing faces. This upcoming 2nd year, expanding into dumb RGB strips, floods and modules.

Down the road, will start looking at smart RGB producst for mega trees and such

From my experiences and the learning curve that it takes, don't know that I would jump into smart lighting right off as a beginer.  

While smart strips/pixes are the craze, there is a place for both dumb and smart lighting in a displ;ay. One's not better than the other...just depends on what look and feels you're after. Everything doesn't have to be super flashy
 

[EmmienLightFan]

Welcome to Light-O-Rama.

Before getting any smart stuff, play with dumb stuff. I got some dumb strips before Christmas, and after Christmas I ordered smart pixels. I am pleased I did what I did, as I already understood RGB and the colours and intensities for different colours.

I use DMX smart pixels, as they are about 75% cheaper, and do the same, but there's no official support apart from some man in China who can hardly speak English or an Ebay seller who doesn't know how it works.

 

CCBs are expensive, and Light-O-Rama wont accept returns (And I think it voids warranties) if you have cut them. If your using lights from other places, your ok, as they only cost about $16 a string. This also would apply to making connections to join them in segments. If I were you, I would use smart DMX nodes, so I could cut them and splice in connectors, and I found a seller on Ebay that sells 50 pixel strings for £10 (I'm in the UK) and controllers for $16, and there is the Pixlite and SanDevices controllers for thousands of pixels, but you'll find that as you get further into the madness of LOR and Christmas Lights.

 

For LOR controllers, the easy linker is a good option. There was once somebody whos linker was damaged by water, but apart from that I have never read anybody mention a problem. There is also wireless DMX available.

 

Both residential and Pro controllers do the same. Most people use residential because of the price. There are very few advantages of the pro. The main one is larger loads.

 

Superstar is great, from what I have heard. It is best for trees/matrices, but makes sequencing easier for single strands and other props. I can use it, but much prefer Nutcracker. It is much better for somebody who is new (I got my first smart stuff about two weeks ago).

 

Any matrix resolution will work. The sequence editor knows nothing about what it is though. You will NEED software for that, or you will spend days trying to sequence anything! 

[JD123]

Thanks for the replies so far!  Great work sonoma!  

 

I want to go "smart" nodes.  I want individually controllable lights.  I'm a programmer so it sounds like fun to learn. I actually prototyped a smart RGB light string maybe 7 years ago.  Never got them to market.  Was really glad to see someone did!

[JD123]

Thanks for the advice EmmienLightFan. When you say I will need software for matrix's, which software are you referring to, Superstar? Nutcracker? Something else?  I need a little help conceptually here.  Let's say, I rig up a 5 x 10 pixel matrix.  I'm assuming each row would be attached to a smart node, then each smart node would be daisy chained together.  I'm guessing that you would tell a program like superstar about the matrix by specifying the smart hubs and telling it how many columns were in each row. Then, it would take care of the rest.  Am I close to how it works?

 

Same with roof segments.  I'm hoping I can run a series of lights from one end of my roofline, across the peak, as far as the string will allow me to go, then daisy chain another string.  I visualize the roofline in segments. For example, one segment is from the bottom of the roof to the peak, another segment would be from the peak, to the other side of the roof.  If I run the string across the roof peak, can I tell the software where the roof segments are (so I can create effects on the roof segments?).

 

Thanks again!

[godman]

Superstar or Nutcracker can do the effects you will need. What type of Smart pixels/nodes will you be using? Unless you are using an LOR product (CCR, CCB etc) you will be using DMX in LOR and will need a controller. LOR is easier when it comes to plug n play but allot more expensive.

[JD123]

I'll probably use LOR CCB's to replace my current light strings.  I was thinking of using the CTB16PC controllers (This is the node, correct?). As for the pixels, I'm open and starting to explore options.  At first, I thought LOR, but it seems there are quite a few options.  I'm open to suggestions.  

[Darryl Lambert]

The CTB16PC is a AC controller so it won't be able to control pixels. It's used for standard light strings ( incandecent or LED ). If your looking to do smart pixels there are many options, so many it can make your head hurt. Each has there pros & cons. If your not afaid to get a little dirty you can save significant $ by going a non LOR route. The advantage of LOR products is great product support & it's pretty much plug & play. 

If you want to do pixels & are not afraid of a little DIY then I would suggest looking at other controllers. A few come to mind like joshua systems , Pixlite , or Sandevice . I use the 4-sandevice 6804 for the outline of my house & around windows & doors, as seen here .

As for pixels you can go separate nodes or strips. Strips are like the CCR the pixels are close together on the strip, typically 30/ meter & as high as 144/meter. They have there own unique challenges , splicing them & waterproofing are a few. Nodes come in a couple styles & ic chip types. They look more like a traditional xmas lights & I find a little easier to deal with ie replacing a bad pixel. There are many places to puchase these. Some north american vendors are HolidayCoro, Seasonal Entertainment, DIYLedexpress. They have presales at various times of the year, you just missed a few. You can also purchase from china directly through alibaba/ aliexpress. Raywu is a popular chinese vendor. Many products, good pricing, but there is a bit of a language barrier & product documentation can be skechy at times.

 

As for your layout. You can draw it in a part of the LOR software called the visualizer. You'll assign your channels there and place them where you like. Then you can import that file into superstar if you want. Superstar only has some very rudimentary drawing tools so in order to have your layout in the software you would have to go that route.

Hope that answers a few of the questions. You can keep firing them here somebody usually has answers. You can PM me as well if you like & I don't know everything, at least thats what my wife says,   but I should be able to get you pointed in the right direction.

[EmmienLightFan]

Yes. You can't use the CTB16C for pixels. That does mains voltage lights.

By nodes, I was referring to the individual lights on a string of pixels, but I can see how you can get nodes and controllers confused (Some people call controllers in a network nodes). Some people also call RGB smart/dumb controllers decoders.

 

You wouldn't tell the computer "Where" the node is. You would just sequence it (Like first one on, first one off, second one on, second one off for a simple chase), remembering where they are in your head. The visualizer is just a useful tool so you know what it will look like and preview sequences, not to tell the computer where it is.

 

Going the LOR route is much less complicated, but achieves the same effect. LOR simply order in the same lights (Or very similar) as you would get if you went the DMX route and make their own controllers (Which come with it), which simply connect to the network and do what they are supposed to do.

If you have had experience with smart pixels, then you should go the DMX route.

 

Pick a controller to suite your IC type (WS2811 or WS2801 normally), a voltage (12v carries over long distances better, and most controllers can only do 12v, but 5v works great) and a DMX dongle (Or even better, E1.31)

It will require cutting and soldering and tinning and configuring channels and a lot of sequencing, but the smart pixels give a much nicer effect.

 

About a matrix, the computer only needs to know where in the grid the pixel is, and which channels they use, not which controllers. Lets say you had a 10 by 20 matrix. In a DMX universe you can fit 170 pixels, but your matrix contains 200. You could have CCps  171st and onwards. All the computer would need to know is the size, and pixel 1 is channels 1-3, pixel 2 is 3-4, up to the 171st pixel, where you tell it pixel 172 is channels 1, 2 and 3 (Or whichever channels it starts on) on the Light-O-Rama network. It doesn't care what it is controlling, DMX, LOR, Dumb, Smart, AC, DC. 

[jrock_at_rons]

2014 was my first year and I stayed simple with 32 AC channels.  Looking back (and forward) I'm glad I kept it simple.  Building everything out and sequencing 6 songs took much more time that I had originally planned.  I couldn't imagine having to think about universes, dip switches and power injection for my first year (not mention learning to solder, waterproofing led strips, and building props on top of it all).  

 

 I'm adding 32 AC channels, dumb RGB snowflakes, and RGB floods this year and the sequencing time for 27 RGB channels and 8 RGB floods is doubling the time I took last year. I can't imagine pixels yet (I'm a programmer too).

 

The good thing is that you are starting early and asking questions.  I would get the software set up asap and start in on sequencing right away.  Simply setting up my channels and visualizer this year took 4+ hours I think. 

[Darryl Lambert]

 

 

 You could have CCps  171st and onwards. All the computer would need to know is the size, and pixel 1 is channels 1-3, pixel 2 is 3-4, up to the 171st pixel, where you tell it pixel 172 is channels 1, 2 and 3 (Or whichever channels it starts on) on the Light-O-Rama network. It doesn't care what it is controlling, DMX, LOR, Dumb, Smart, AC, DC. 

This is not correct where CCP's are concerned. If you decide to use CCP's they have there own controller that runs on LOR protocol & have 100 pixels.

All other smart RGB products run on DMX except for the CCR.

[EmmienLightFan]

I know they run in the LOR protocol. I was just saying that you can tell have some DMX pixels and some LOR pixels in a matrix or in any prop, and the computer would treat them in the same way and could do effects across both protocols.. I said "On the Light-O-Rama network".

 

@JD123 If you haven't already, you could download the trial of the LOR suite and start sequencing, and adding channels and things like that.. Download Xlights-Nutcracker and have a go at creating something, and try Superstar as well. See which one you get on best with.

[JD123]

Yes! I think one of my next steps is to play with software.  I'll take a look at Nutcracker & LOR.  Can one get a demo version of Superstar?

 

Also wondering what the limit of channels per LOR or DMX cable run is. If a display has many RGB pixels (e.g. matrix displays), the channel usage could add-up quickly.

 

If I read it correctly, each DMX universe (512 channels, or approx 170 RGB pixels) would need to be on a separate cable run. Does that mean a separate run from the computer or controller for every group of 170 RGB pixels?

 

It looks like LOR uses a command based protocol that helps reduce network traffic.  Still, after daisy chaining many pixels it would still have its limits.  I read 3840 channels or 1280 RGB pixels. Does that sound correct?  Again, for large RGB shows, that would imply quite a few home-runs of cable.  Maybe I'm missing something.  

 

I'm also wondering if the LOR easy light linkers can be used with DMX (Native, not ones connected via the iDMX-1000)? 

 

Any specific recommendations for pixels, and RGB bulbs that are weatherproof?

 

Thanks again for all the help.  I'm slooooowly getting a better idea how this all works!

[Darryl Lambert]

Some of these questions are partly related to the type of controller you will be using. LOR & true DMX type controllers can be daisy chained where controllers like the sandevice are DMX over ethernet or E1.31. For LOR & DMX you would need a dongle either rs485 for LOR or something like the entec for DMX. For a sandevice you will go from your computer via your network port to your controller. If using multiple sandvice's or E1.31 type controllers you would go from your computer to a network switch then to each controller. 

Just starting out you probably won't need to worry about your channel count. I run 12000 channels with LOR and haven't had a problem with network traffic, the sequence editor is a different story for sometime later.

As for pixels I'm using a combination of, TLS3001 square pixels for my pixeltree & pixabulbs from DIYLEDexpress for my house outline + windows.

[dragonzpneuma]

There are a couple of tutorials out there that I found very helpful (just starting with RGB myself).  For Nutcracker, try  https://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AmIx0L3f99p57AWLPfWhzCybvZx4?p=xlights+nutcracker+tutorial&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-250&fp=1   It's a long video, but very simplified and geared toward the newbie.  As for LOR and Superstar, the LightORama website has a section of video tutorials that cover many areas.  Good luck to ya.

 

Keith

 

P.S. The Nutcracker link posted here takes you to a search page.  The first video is the correct one (1 hr. 38 mins long)

Edited February 17, 2015 by dragonzpneuma

[godman]

Xlights 4 is coming out shortly with a who new sequencer interface so watch for it............should be excellent.

Edited February 18, 2015 by godman

[dragonzpneuma]

I just watched the video of Xlights 4 beta Godman.  Looks like they're migrating more towards an LOR sequencer type interface.  Much more powerful though.  Can't wait to play with it.

[JD123]

I downloaded Xlights, LOR and Superstar demos.  So far, the Xlights seems to be put together more logically.  I was surprised to find that LOR was a collection of individual programs.  Hopefully, Xlights will release their new version soon. My initial impressions are that none of the software packages are the end-all to beat-all.  The market is still open for that "killer" program!

 

Thanks again.