Are some GFCI outlets better than others?

[tonyski]

Merry Christmas All,

Well it has been raining pretty hard here in Atlanta the past few days and thing are really wet. Like so many, I'm having my share of GFCI trips. I don't run my show when it is actually raining, but getting things going again after a rain takes some time. I guess that with 560 channels it is almost unavoidable, but it is still frustrating as it can be.

I'm familiar with many of the posts about how to make things more weather resistant, and do my best to follow those recommendations, but troubleshooting has led me to a different question.

Are some GFCI outlets better than others?

I'm pretty confident that at least three of the GFCIs that I use are tripping earlier than they should. If I take an extension cord from a circuit that I'm having trouble with and plug it into another outlet I don't get a trip.

I've read several internet posts that talk about how GFCIs do go bad over time, indoors or out, so I'm looking for specific recommendations for high quality heavy duty, long lasting GFCIs. They will be mounted outdoors in weather resistant boxes with plastic "in use" covers.

Thanks and all the best in the New Year,

Tony

www.christmasinthegrove.net

Edited December 26, 2012 by tonyski

[De Trommelslager]

As for weatherproofing, the usual tips apply. Connections off the ground, avoid metal to ground contact on frames, keep cord out of pooling water, etc. Fault currents are collective, so if you have multiple current leaks on a GFCI device they accumulate until it gets to the trip level. Fewer channels per GFCI is a method of minimizing this as well as helping isolate issues when you do have them.

As far as GFCI devices themselves, I have found sensitive devices in all brands and ratings that I have used. I am using Pass & Seymor devices for my display and haven't had issues this year. One trip all season is the score right now. Once they have cycled multiple times they do seem to be more prone to tripping, though. I would recommend buying the higher quality devices (commercial grade) over the builder's quality stuff, but you are also talking more money at the register. In my experience they hold up much better over time. YMMV

[LORisAwesome]

I had some that went bad almost immediately after I installed them. The trouble I had was that I could not get them to reset. I think I got a bad batch somehow. Got them at Home Depot.

Mine have a green light on them and the covers are transparent, so I can easily tell by looking which ones are tripped. The GFCI outlets that say weather resistant seemed to work better for me.

Jerry

Edited December 26, 2012 by LORisAwesome

[tonyski]

Thanks all,

I bought some Pass and Seymor 20A Weather resistant GFCIs today at Lowes. I think I am going to put two GFCIs on each circuit that I have to help lower the chance of cumulative trips. I know it means more extension cords but if it reduces the chance of trips,and the associated frustration, it's worth it to me.

Like I mentioned, I do try to follow the usual tips that De Trommelslager mentioned but one likely culprit is that in an effort to get some connections off of the ground, I zip tied them to a metal fence. Kind of a bone-headed mistake there, but easy to fix

Is there an issue with water getting into female plugs or between the male and female portions of a connection? How about water in the socket of a mini light bulb?

What do you all do about unused female outlets? Is the fact that they get water in them even an issue?

I understand and agree that taping over them is a poor choice. What about using those childproof outlet covers?

This has been a very interesting learning experience. I look forward to your replies.

Tony

[-klb-]

The childproof plastic covers seem to help some people. Really shouldn't matter as long as the ends are away from anything grounded or with contaminated water.

One thing that did drive me nuts for a while was some tripple tap extension cords where the female end was hollow. These never even got close to the ground, but have hot, neutral, and ground in free air inside the plug end. After a rain, I tracked down that one of these appeared to be the issue, and discovered that I could hear water inside it when I shook it. All I can guess is that the AC voltage, water, and unprotected copper inside allowed for a copper solution to form inside the cord end, allowing for conductivity to ground. I now try to avoid those in wet use locations.

I try to minimize the number of grounded conections in existance in the display.

On strings of lights that will never have another string plugged in, I do try to remove the female ends, and insulate the ends.

Water in the socket of an incandescent lamp is only an issue if there is a path of impure water from there to something grounded. Occassionally, a tree trunk, and lots of really wet sockets on stings wrapped to the trunk will do it, but it almost takes one of those days where water is just condensing out on everything before you get that wet.

You can get issues with water between the male and female ends of grounded cords, but it is not one of my major issues. We have plenty that are wet, that are not an issue, but we try to limit how many exist on a single circuit.

[tonyski]

Thanks klb.

I think my lack of knowledge of grounding may be clouding the issue for me.

Would you mind explaining what you mean when you use the term "grounded connection"?

It is my understanding that a GFCI trips when is senses current literally passing from an outlet or wire into the earth/ground. Different from a short circuit which causes a CB to trip.

By minimizing the opportunities for current to pass into the ground, we minimize the chances of GFCI trips.

Does grounding also happen in a 3 wire connection with current passimg from the hot wire to the ground wire?

How about on shrubs? Can current leak from a connection, and pass through the plant to the ground?

Thanks

[LORisAwesome]

If you ever look in your breaker box, you will notice that the neutral (white wire) and the ground (bare copper wire) are connected to the same place. These are actually both connected to earth ground. There should be a grounding rod outside your home that was driven into the ground and the circuit breaker (neutrals and grounds) should be connected to the grounding rod. It is probably not easy to find. Mine is actually buried and wire connected to it underground.

It is my understanding that the GFCI measures the current going out on the hot (black wire) and compares it to the current coming back on the neutral (white wire). The GFCI should trip if it detects a difference between the hot and neutral. Since the neutral and ground are seperate at the outlet, it should trip if the current is returning on the ground wire.

I am not an expert, but this is my understanding, someone please correct me if I an wrong.

Jerry

[-klb-]

Thanks klb.

I think my lack of knowledge of grounding may be clouding the issue for me.

Would you mind explaining what you mean when you use the term "grounded connection"?

It is my understanding that a GFCI trips when is senses current literally passing from an outlet or wire into the earth/ground. Different from a short circuit which causes a CB to trip.

By minimizing the opportunities for current to pass into the ground, we minimize the chances of GFCI trips.

Does grounding also happen in a 3 wire connection with current passimg from the hot wire to the ground wire?

How about on shrubs? Can current leak from a connection, and pass through the plant to the ground?

Thanks

Since GFCI compares current in hot and neutral, any current leaking to any different path is measured against the trip threshold. So it really doesn't matter if the leak is to earth ground, the grounded pin on a grounded extension cord, or a hot on a different circuit. The thing is that a grounded cord puts a ground in a fixed proximity to your circuit, where any impurities can cause a significant ground fault.

Shrubs can also be ground path, but generally, you don't wind up with as close a contact between your bulb sockets, so they don't tend to be as big an issue as tree trunks, where the strings are usually wrapped in close proximity. With trees being mostly an issue when there is lots of humidity, and water condensing on everything, it takes some real wet weather for shrubs to be a GFCI issue normally.