Commercial Grade VS Retail LED's

[brownjm74]

I am already planning the 2012 show and I want to know which LED’s people are using and why. What problems have you had and such. I want to expand my display but I will be maxed out using all of my 10 – 20A GFCI’s with the 2011 show. Therefore I need to switch some things to LED’s. The problem is I don’t want to nor can I spend $1,900 (for commercial grade) on LED’s for just the Mega Tree ( 96 strands of lights) – my wife would kill me! So I was thinking of buying Retail ones (HD, Lowes, Menards …) however my main concern is the rusting you get from unsealed LED’s (common with the Retail led’s ?) Thanks for the info guys!

[Jim Saul]

Hi Jeremy, I'm almost in the same boat. I've used the Walmart / home depot LEDs in the last few years with mixed results.
1) Net lights - only got 2 seasons out of them before the steel leads in them were rusted and the sets were garbage.
2) the regular sets (Walmart blue boxes 60 per) are only 1/2 wave so they do not dim. when you bunch them together you can see that they are only 1/2 wave and are actually blinking 30x / sec. If they are separated in a bush on tree it is harder to see the blinking.
So Far I've successfully used them in bushes, but when I tried to make a Bethlehem star with them it looked bad.

[brownjm74]

Jim Saul wrote:

Hi Jeremy, I'm almost in the same boat. I've used the Walmart / home depot LEDs in the last few years with mixed results.
1) Net lights - only got 2 seasons out of them before the steel leads in them were rusted and the sets were garbage.
2) the regular sets (Walmart blue boxes 60 per) are only 1/2 wave so they do not dim. when you bunch them together you can see that they are only 1/2 wave and are actually blinking 30x / sec. If they are separated in a bush on tree it is harder to see the blinking.
So Far I've successfully used them in bushes, but when I tried to make a Bethlehem star with them it looked bad.

The 1/2 wave is also one of my concerns. I was thinking of making an adaptor to convert 1/2 wave LED's to full wave using a rectifying diode matrix. (which I still have to work / experiment with).

[Donny M. Carter]

brownjm74 wrote:

Jim Saul wrote:

Hi Jeremy, I'm almost in the same boat. I've used the Walmart / home depot LEDs in the last few years with mixed results.
1) Net lights - only got 2 seasons out of them before the steel leads in them were rusted and the sets were garbage.
2) the regular sets (Walmart blue boxes 60 per) are only 1/2 wave so they do not dim. when you bunch them together you can see that they are only 1/2 wave and are actually blinking 30x / sec. If they are separated in a bush on tree it is harder to see the blinking.
So Far I've successfully used them in bushes, but when I tried to make a Bethlehem star with them it looked bad.

The 1/2 wave is also one of my concerns.  I was thinking of making an adaptor to convert 1/2 wave LED's to full wave using a rectifying diode matrix.  (which I still have to work / experiment with).

Here is a link posted recently about snubbers:

Also, get commercial grade leds from a reputable supplier like CDI.
http://www.creativedisplays.com/

[zman]

Jeremy,

I had to read your first post twice to realize it said 2012 and not 2011.

First off, stick with full wave sealed units. Don't go half wave figuring you can fully rectify them, yada, yada, more headache, stuff to go wrong, etc.... Edit- that is not to say that depending on the controller, you may not need to put a snubber on them to make them fade more smoothly or make them last longer. The commercial replaceable units were making head way, but suffered a set back, and now seem to be re-surging again, but it may not be till we get through 2012 season to see how the newer designs are faring.

I stay away from the big box brands. Some like them, I have not had good success with them. Instead I use Creative Displays, Reinders, Holiday LEDs for LEDs. There are others as well that post or get talked about on the forums. Search is your friend here. Creative and Holiday (and others) will have a pre-season order in Jan/Feb. That is the cheapest time to get your LEDs. They will offer sales during the summer, but none as cheap as that order.

No matter what, you are still buying a product that is going to have failures. Plan for those and keep spares on hand. I burn in test my strings now for 24 hours when I get them, or before I use them on a display item. Most failures will occur in this burn in and you can work with the vendor or replacements.

So you get what you pay for and that is true for LEDs. Buy from a reliable vendor at the best time of year and that is all you can do. There is an investment in switching to LEDs. Most do it for one of 2 reasons. You are hitting the primary item, your electrical footprint. The other is color. They are more brilliant with LEDs and last, rather than fading or chipping off.

Now, you get what you pay for. You can buy them once and be realatively happy, or you can buy them multiple times to replace what fails.

I use CDI and Reinders for 95% of my LEDs. I do so because of customer service, quality, price and that fact that I can pick up the phone, and talk to Paul Sessel or Laurie Reinder and have a conversation with them first, then get down to business. By them knowing me, and knowing that I support them in the community, it helps when I realy NEED thier help.

[Jim Saul]

Cool, thanks Donny. Do the snubbers get rid of the flickering too? The article talked about dimming but did not address the flickering.

[jstorms]

I use retail LEDs due to cost.

Last year I had 14,000+.
This year will be 25,000+.

Last year I had some flickering issues. I was able to resolve these by:
1 - Being careful to avoid long fades
2 - Keep extension cord runs under 50'
3 - Using snubbers (glade plugins) for any remaining problem areas.

I hear there is a firmware update coming the should help too.

[Steven]

Jim Saul wrote:

the regular sets (Walmart blue boxes 60 per) are only 1/2 wave so they do not dim. when you bunch them together you can see that they are only 1/2 wave and are actually blinking 30x / sec. If they are separated in a bush on tree it is harder to see the blinking.

The 1/2 wave LED strings still dim, but you may need a snubber (resistor) or they won't dim all the way down. I find that if I have 1 string of 100 bulbs it dims fine without a snubber, but when I get to 6 strings or more a snubber is required.

1/2 wave LED strings actually blink 60x / sec. Full-wave strings actually blink 120x / sec.

(These numbers apply in North America.)

[Surfing4Dough]

Have used Walmart LEDs and actually love them. They have a 3 year warranty. They dim great. Only when hook 4+ stings together do they dim a little funny SOMETIMES, but snubbers solved that completely. I can't tell any difference from my incandescents vs LEDs with regards to fade or "blink". Most people won't see the "blink" of half waves anyway (and since when do we care about blinking lights!) Only difference is that the LEDs are brighter. I am going into a 4th season with some of them this year, and haven't had a single failure yet. Another advantage is that I got a ton 50% off after Christmas last year. Therefore at that price, I could by 3-4 sets for the price of one commercial grade.

[Paul Roberson]

My experience is the commercial grade LEDs fail just as much as the retail LEDs.

[HiTechLights]

I have to second what zman said. You cannot go wrong with buying from Paul at CDI http://www.creativedisplays.com

Regards,

Michael

[George Simmons]

Paul Roberson wrote:

My experience is the commercial grade LEDs fail just as much as the retail LEDs.

Agreed. And I've got the 25ct sets (from what used to be 50's) to prove it.


Having said that, it sure is nice to unwrap a set of lights knowing it's the exact same color as last year, and you don't have to go hunting for the bad bulb all the time.

[paulanator]

I used that exact tutorial on the snubbers and they worked out great. I have Pro grade LEDs, full wave lights.

I was having problems on low percentages, such as a static display at 25% and with some fades with my LEDs.

Added the snubbers on those circuits, and worked perfect.

The only thing I had a problem with, was the silicone sealant. I used a white (I think bathtub type) and it did something really odd.

The white silicone melted down into the plugs and out the seams of the plugs. There was actually white blobs on the lawn when we did the take down.

I just looked at them this past weekend and the metal prongs on the plugs are now starting to corrode.

I am not trying to hijack the thread, but just wanted to mention this.

I was thinking maybe the extremes of weather, or maybe they were not dry completely before putting them out on the display.

[LORi P]

Jim Saul wrote:

Hi Jeremy, I'm almost in the same boat. I've used the Walmart / home depot LEDs in the last few years with mixed results.
1) Net lights - only got 2 seasons out of them before the steel leads in them were rusted and the sets were garbage.
2) the regular sets (Walmart blue boxes 60 per) are only 1/2 wave so they do not dim. when you bunch them together you can see that they are only 1/2 wave and are actually blinking 30x / sec. If they are separated in a bush on tree it is harder to see the blinking.
So Far I've successfully used them in bushes, but when I tried to make a Bethlehem star with them it looked bad.

I used the Walmart 60 count in the blue box last year in my static display and this year will be using them in my animated display. I actually ran some tests a couple of weeks ago with incandescent and LED side by side to compare the fading of each and I could see NO difference between the fading of the incans and the Walmart LEDs. I tried 1 second fades, and 2 second fades, and saw no difference. What do people consider ‘long’ fades? Maybe I need to test again with longer fades?

I also do not notice any flickering with my Walmart LED’s, but I do with some of the ones I got a BigLots.

I wonder why I do not see what everyone else does with the Walmart LEDs?

[Surfing4Dough]

LORi P wrote:

Jim Saul wrote:

Hi Jeremy, I'm almost in the same boat. I've used the Walmart / home depot LEDs in the last few years with mixed results.
1) Net lights - only got 2 seasons out of them before the steel leads in them were rusted and the sets were garbage.
2) the regular sets (Walmart blue boxes 60 per) are only 1/2 wave so they do not dim. when you bunch them together you can see that they are only 1/2 wave and are actually blinking 30x / sec. If they are separated in a bush on tree it is harder to see the blinking.
So Far I've successfully used them in bushes, but when I tried to make a Bethlehem star with them it looked bad.

I used the Walmart 60 count in the blue box last year in my static display and this year will be using them in my animated display. I actually ran some tests a couple of weeks ago with incandescent and LED side by side to compare the fading of each and I could see NO difference between the fading of the incans and the Walmart LEDs. I tried 1 second fades, and 2 second fades, and saw no difference. What do people consider ‘long’ fades? Maybe I need to test again with longer fades?

I also do not notice any flickering with my Walmart LED’s, but I do with some of the ones I got a BigLots.

I wonder why I do not see what everyone else does with the Walmart LEDs?

I would think of a "long" fade as 5-10 seconds. Make sure you test with multiple strings attached to each other too. Sometimes you can see the blink if you shake the lights while lit, but I don't think "blink" is a good description. I think of this blink more like seeing a "hum". I don't notice the hum in my display with >100 stings of walmart LEDs.

[paulanator]

Yes, I noticed one or two strings are usually fine, but once you get a few on a channel, that is when it is noticeable.

[brownjm74]

Thanks for the info guys! I now need to make up my mind on which way to go and start planning.