GFCI Revisited

[Guest guest]

I had GFCI outlets (highly recommend them!) that I installed at the house I lived in, unfortunately for me, we moved to an apartment where there are no outdoor outlets, so I will have to run an extension cord from inside my living room to the outside for the controlelrs and display items. Which also means I have to have my window cracked just enough to allow the cord to pass through without being pinched or damaged.

Also unfortunately, the only GFCI outlet is in the bathroom and I needed a way to just plug in an exernal GFCI outlet, now I wasn't sure if such a thing existed and searched Lowes to see if they have any such thing, which they do and this is what I found: (Price ranges from around $27 to $72 rounded up). Urls are lowest price to highest.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_145277-33536-30338062_0__?productId=1135927&Ntt=gfci+cord&pl=1&currentURL=%2Fpl__0__s%3FNtt%3Dgfci%2Bcord

http://www.lowes.com/pd_145278-33536-30334054_0__?productId=1135929&Ntt=gfci+cord&pl=1&currentURL=%2Fpl__0__s%3FNtt%3Dgfci%2Bcord#BVRRWidgetID

http://www.lowes.com/pd_26642-33536-30338317_0__?productId=3265621&Ntt=gfci+cord&pl=1&currentURL=%2Fpl__0__s%3FNtt%3Dgfci%2Bcord

Now there may be "cheaper" ones in other places, but I just wanted to share this with others that may also live in an area where either they can't install a GFCI (like an apartment) or they can just use one of these in a standard grounded outlet if they don't know how or don't want to install one in a regular outlet box, but still be able to use a GFCI to protect their display, equipment and visitors.

I know some won't use one no matter what (GFCI), although I have no idea why, as they DO protect your controllers, computer(if connected via Cat5) and other items in your display in case of problems.

Just know I will definitely be investing in one of these to protect my display and visitors, especially since I am in an apartment, and just can't replace the indoor outlet that I will be using to power my display with a GFCI, since I would have no authority to do so.

[PaulXmas]

Why not just swap out one of the outlets for GFI ?

When you move put the old on back.

[rstately]

Clay,
I know people replace there light switches with dimmers in apartments all the time. Have you asked if you could install a 12.00 GFCI in the wall near the window? would save you some $$$


Edit: man I type slow...

[caniac]

PaulXmas wrote:

Why not just swap out one of the outlets for GFI ?

When you move put the old on back.

My thoughts to, easier to beg forgiveness than ask permission.

[Guest guest]

rstately wrote:

Clay,
I know people replace there light switches with dimmers in apartments all the time. Have you asked if you could install a 12.00 GFCI in the wall near the window? would save you some $$$


Edit: man I type slow...

Yes it would. And yes, I did, but they said I'd have to be "licensed" to replace it, even though I've done it myself and know how, they would prefer I pay a licensed electrician to have one installed. So in that instance, I think the GFCI cord would be MUCH CHEAPER!

I would never replace anything without permission first. Can't use dimmers here because they use those CFL non-dimmable type bulbs and they replace them when they go out. So I'll do what they say I can and won't do anything I don't have permission to do.

Believe me, if they'd have let me I would have "tapped" this outlet and installed a GFCI directly on the wall outside the apartment, it would be very easy to do, but since none have outlets outside, they don't want any. Just makes it a little more difficult to get power to my display, but at least I can do that!

So I'll just spend the $$ for one of those GFCI cords, unless they decide to change their mind and allow me to do it! But really don't think that will happen.

So I'll do what I have to do.

[Guest guest]

caniac wrote:

PaulXmas wrote:

Why not just swap out one of the outlets for GFI ?

When you move put the old on back.

My thoughts to, easier to beg forgiveness than ask permission.

They check/inspect the apartments regulary and check the outlets, so I'd be in HOT WATER if I did it without permission. They have been pretty good to allow my displays and other things, they are looking forward to the Halloween and Christmas displays. But not being a licensed electrician I have to find other ways to make things safer. And the GFCI cord is the best route for me presently!

Just wish I could convince then outdoor outlets would be a PLUS! At least for me!

[caniac]

Orville wrote:

caniac wrote:

PaulXmas wrote:

Why not just swap out one of the outlets for GFI ?

When you move put the old on back.

My thoughts to, easier to beg forgiveness than ask permission.

They check/inspect the apartments regulary and check the outlets, so I'd be in HOT WATER if I did it without permission. They have been pretty good to allow my displays and other things, they are looking forward to the Halloween and Christmas displays. But not being a licensed electrician I have to find other ways to make things safer. And the GFCI cord is the best route for me presently!

Just wish I could convince then outdoor outlets would be a PLUS! At least for me!

I see I see said the blind man.

[PaulXmas]

Sounds like the extension cord is the way to go then.

[Paul Roberson]

Don't know what size display you are planning, but they may want you to have a license when they see/understand (or lack of) what it involves.

[Guest guest]

Paul Roberson wrote:

Don't know what size display you are planning, but they may want you to have a license when they see/understand (or lack of) what it involves.

48 channels, they have seen the controllers and understand the complexity. They just don't have outdoor outlets (they did years ago, but removed them, covered the open box with a platel and then covered them with vinyl siding!:shock: )

So no license needed for the display, like said, they already know what's involved, management has seen my "workroom" which is in the living room" along one side of the wall where I do my sequence testing. are aware of the need for extension cords to the controllers and don't have any issues with that. Only issue is if I satrt messing with the internal electrical wiring to add something that they feel should be done by a licensed electrician. And I can understand that. Although I am not licensed, I know how to do it because my grandfather and father were both electricians at one time, so I learned a lot from them on electrical wiring,

I do have an uncle currently that is a licensed electrician that lives about 3 miles from me, but I can't ever seem to catch him at home to talk this over with him. Since he is licensed, they'd allow him to install the GFCI, which I could actually go and take from the old house since we still have stuf stored there that we're moving a little at a time.

[rstately]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001OE3JHC/ref=s9_simh_gw_p60_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1FHJXF8A534RB750D8WY&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846

This one is cheap, but don't know about quality?...

[Steven]

I once used a portable GFCI connector, but I replaced it with a real GFCI outlet when I found this problem: Whenever there was a power failure or even a brief glitch, the GCFI triggered! I tested it without anything plugged in and found that it was designed to work this way. So I got rid of it. Moral: Keep your receipt and check the operation of the portable GFCI when power is briefly lost.

Orville wrote:

I know some won't use one no matter what (GFCI), although I have no idea why, as they DO protect your controllers, computer(if connected via Cat5) and other items in your display in case of problems.

They do protect humans who accidentally touch a hot wire, but they're not designed to protect equipment. I don't know how they would protect a controller. And I would think that the computer would be damaged by a fault before the GFCI would have time to trip.

As to why some people won't use them, one person I know got tired of resetting the GFCIs every time it rained. He also got tired of visitors complaining that some sections of the display weren't working.

[-klb-]

If my memory is correct, it is actually a code requirement that temporary use GFCI trip when power is removed.

On a hard wired GFCI, if for some reason the neutral lead between the panel and the GFCI fails, the GFCI can not trip. It actually takes electrical current back through neutral to power the trip action.

On a temporary/portable, extension cord GFCI, how much more likely is it that the neutral lead may become disconnected accidentally? And, if it becomes disconnected, the user may think that the whole plug in circuit is dead, because nothing plugged in works, but in fact, it may all be hot!

So, if the temporary unit is not able to draw enough current, and return it through neutral to keep a relay energized, they trip out by design.

[PaulXmas]

Steven wrote:

I once used a portable GFCI connector, but I replaced it with a real GFCI outlet when I found this problem: Whenever there was a power failure or even a brief glitch, the GCFI triggered! I tested it without anything plugged in and found that it was designed to work this way. So I got rid of it. Moral: Keep your receipt and check the operation of the portable GFCI when power is briefly lost.

Orville wrote:

I know some won't use one no matter what (GFCI), although I have no idea why, as they DO protect your controllers, computer(if connected via Cat5) and other items in your display in case of problems.

They do protect humans who accidentally touch a hot wire, but they're not designed to protect equipment. I don't know how they would protect a controller. And I would think that the computer would be damaged by a fault before the GFCI would have time to trip.

As to why some people won't use them, one person I know got tired of resetting the GFCIs every time it rained. He also got tired of visitors complaining that some sections of the display weren't working.

I used a bunch of weather proof boxes that included GFI outlets and attached the male end of an extension cord.

[Guest guest]

PaulXmas wrote:

Steven wrote:

I once used a portable GFCI connector, but I replaced it with a real GFCI outlet when I found this problem: Whenever there was a power failure or even a brief glitch, the GCFI triggered! I tested it without anything plugged in and found that it was designed to work this way. So I got rid of it. Moral: Keep your receipt and check the operation of the portable GFCI when power is briefly lost.

Orville wrote:

I know some won't use one no matter what (GFCI), although I have no idea why, as they DO protect your controllers, computer(if connected via Cat5) and other items in your display in case of problems.

They do protect humans who accidentally touch a hot wire, but they're not designed to protect equipment. I don't know how they would protect a controller. And I would think that the computer would be damaged by a fault before the GFCI would have time to trip.

As to why some people won't use them, one person I know got tired of resetting the GFCIs every time it rained. He also got tired of visitors complaining that some sections of the display weren't working.

I used a bunch of weather proof boxes that included GFI outlets and attached the male end of an extension cord.

Paul, you just reminded and have no idea why I didn't think of that in the first place, Can I go get my regular GFCI I bought and installed at the other house (with its weatherproof housing) and just get an extension cord and cut the end off and wire the GFCI to that? That won't cost me anything but a little bit of time to remove the old unit and bring it to the new place and wire it up!

So now I won't need to buy one and from what I've been reading, they don't work like a normal GFCI outlet that is installed(hardwired) in an outlet.

Now if I do it this way, since the "extension cord" types I had thought about getting trip when power is turned off or a small hiccup in the power grid trips it(from what I've read here), will wiring a regualr outlet GFCI in this manner do the same thing?

Or will it continue to stay powered and NOT trip if a small glitch would terminate power for a miniscule of a second? (you know those glitches that happen so quick, like the blink of an eye, and then just like some digital clocks, one little glitch and you have to reset the dang clock!)

So will there be any issues I need to watch for using a normal GFCI wired to an grounded extension cord?

Or will it work just like it does if hard-wired into the outlet box that's feeding it through the "modified" extension cord set-up?

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the input and answers Jeff! That is how I will do it. At least that'll still give me a working GFCI that I need that shouldn't give me any issues. And I can just plug it into the existing outlet I want to use, so at least I'll feel a lot better about having a working GFCI on the display items.

Sure glad I started this particular thread as I think this information will help not only me, but a lot of folks, including the Newbie just coming into this hobby!

Thanks again for all your efforts and test results Jeff. Now I know exactly what I will do and still keep myself and visitors to my display safe!

Much appreciated!

[Max-Paul]

heck, I didn't know that those fancy portable GFI cords would trip when power is interrupted. But I would have suggested the same with the standard GFI in a outlet box with cord and male connector. So, I did learn something from this thread.

[Guest guest]

Max-Paul wrote:

heck, I didn't know that those fancy portable GFI cords would trip when power is interrupted. But I would have suggested the same with the standard GFI in a outlet box with cord and male connector. So, I did learn something from this thread.

Me too! Good thing Jeff Millard did those tests, he saved me some $$$ and a load of frustration if I had used one of those GFI extension cords, and didn't know about this power glitch trip issue!

Fortunately I went and removed my old GFCI outlet and outdoor cover I had purchased previously, and was mounted on the house we were living in (late mother in laws). So I went to Lowes and got a new outdoor outlet box, took an old grounded extension cord and cut the female end off and wired it all up. Made a couple of blunders along the way and kept tripping the GFCI every time I plugged it in, fixed the problem and now have a nice working GFCI outlet for my display use.

So now my GFCI is mounted to my "LOR Controller Desk" that houses my 3 controllers(48 channel set up) inside the desk that has a flip lid, which I will add a lock hasp and a lock for security measures, the GFCI has now been mounted on the outside and this will all be covered with a black fabric to conceal everything and my 5 Jack O' Lanterns will sit on top of the desk.

Currently the desk is inside and being used for my "work bench" sequencing tests, but I'll try and pull it out for some photo's of how I have everythig mounted inside, holes for the dongles to come out of and other stuff. Will need to drill a few "drain holes" in the bottom of the desk before placing it outside in the weather. Don't need my controllers filling up with water when the rains come! Yikes!:shock:

This "modified" desk is basically my temporary solution for my controllers and power outside while in the apartment as I can't mount the controllers to the walls like i did at the house. So I was very happy to take this "very large desk" off my neioghbors hands. The price was outstanding, absolutely FREE!

Just glad I didn't have to try and build something to hold the controllers, that desk will sure make my life a lot easier for setting up my display outside our apratment, and now I only have to run one cord out the window instead of two or more. the only problem is it takes two people to move it! LOL

[Alan C]

Max-Paul wrote:

heck, I didn't know that those fancy portable GFI cords would trip when power is interrupted. But I would have suggested the same with the standard GFI in a outlet box with cord and male connector. So, I did learn something from this thread.

The portable GFI cords are designed to be used with power tools - drills, saws and the like. The idea is that when the power fails, the tools can not automatically start again when the power returns - an extra safety feature.

Regards,

Alan.

[Guest guest]

Alan C wrote:

Max-Paul wrote:

heck, I didn't know that those fancy portable GFI cords would trip when power is interrupted. But I would have suggested the same with the standard GFI in a outlet box with cord and male connector. So, I did learn something from this thread.

The portable GFI cords are designed to be used with power tools - drills, saws and the like. The idea is that when the power fails, the tools can not automatically start again when the power returns - an extra safety feature.

Regards,

Alan.

[align=center]
Good for Power Tools - BAD for Holiday Displays![/align]