Sequence music timing

[htebault]

I am a bit perplexed by some music timing - and wanted to ask is there a best practices that this group finds when sequencing?
Take any song - and to get the proper beat I have been using the tapper - but find that is not always the best.
I am thinking that a fixed timing of 1/20 sec would be a good starting point. I also have been trying to test Best, Tapper and VU tools as rows in a test song to find if/how they best interact to guide sequencing.
For Beat - It seem to be ok... but not quite on for some reason. I'd tried 2x and 4x beats -
For VU - It puts in values - but the default seems to be too binary / if the song is at a level, it is on - below a level it is off - (it would be nice to have a gradient intensity)
For tapper - I've used tapping to the beat = and used tapping to the words sung, or music elements I am trying to mark - not quite there yet and the mouse/up/down is good, but my fingers sometimes don't cooperate as they should...

Any best practices on how to setup the music timing ?

[Tremor30]

Use Beat at typically 8x so your somewhere in the 1000bpm range. I find it the best. Although you may find spots in the song that are slightly off, it will sinc back up and is the best by far!

[George Simmons]

I've been using the beat wizard for four years now on every song I've done and I'm darn satisfied with the results. (Follow website link below for videos) Sometimes, in the first few seconds of a song you have to align some of the timings manually. With songs that have changing tempos you sometimes have to do a section of the song at a time. But other than that, it's pretty much dead on. IMHO, the Beat Wizard is the single most important tool we have.

[htebault]

Do you have any guidance on setting up the timing grid ? 1/10 of a second, 1/20th -

[lightzilla]

I uses two things the "Beat Wizard" & the "Wave Form" but for me I rely more on the wave form. The song I am doing now the Beat Wiz & the Wave Form actually line up....I do not get that often with some of the songs I use.

I am more than likely the odd duck when it come to choosing Tapper, Beat or Wave

I find it best to use head phones while listen & sequencing........ especailly when fine tuning a sequence.

I also shut off the voice (voice cancellation) on my computer speaker when I have my head phones on.....that way I get to hear other instruments in the back ground.

Bottom line......"Wave Form" mostly for me.

You can view my videos to see what you think.

[George Simmons]

htebault wrote:

Do you have any guidance on setting up the timing grid ? 1/10 of a second, 1/20th -

I think you'll find the 1/10 of a second a bit too imprecise, but you can use as many different timing grids as you want. Fixed grids, like those you asked about in your quoted post, won't allow you to move the timing marks. Freeform grids that the Beat Wizard and Tapper create DO allow you to move timing marks.

I don't use fixed grids, but when I create a new sequence I use the Beat Wizard to create multiple grids (beat x2, x3, x4, etc.) No matter whether they're fixed or freeform, timing grids can easily be swapped in and out so you can use different timing marks for different display elements or in different parts of the same song.

And as 'Zilla mentioned, the wave form is also an excellent guide. I use it all the time and as I was sitting here sequencing after responding to your query earlier, I realized I had totally neglected to mention it. Great save 'Zilla - it's been bugging me and I came back here to add that and saw you had already taken care of it.

[htebault]

George Simmons wrote:

htebault wrote:

Do you have any guidance on setting up the timing grid ? 1/10 of a second, 1/20th -

I think you'll find the 1/10 of a second a bit too imprecise, but you can use as many different timing grids as you want. Fixed grids, like those you asked about in your quoted post, won't allow you to move the timing marks. Freeform grids that the Beat Wizard and Tapper create DO allow you to move timing marks.

I don't use fixed grids, but when I create a new sequence I use the Beat Wizard to create multiple grids (beat x2, x3, x4, etc.) No matter whether they're fixed or freeform, timing grids can easily be swapped in and out so you can use different timing marks for different display elements or in different parts of the same song.

And as 'Zilla mentioned, the wave form is also an excellent guide. I use it all the time and as I was sitting here sequencing after responding to your query earlier, I realized I had totally neglected to mention it. Great save 'Zilla - it's been bugging me and I came back here to add that and saw you had already taken care of it.

Thanks for that note -
I had not tried to do multiple tapper grids and will try that. What is it that you are looking for most with x2, x3, x4 etc speeds ? '
I have started looking at the waveform, but haven't yet gotten a link between that and the light sequence patterns.

[DLTSLC]

George Simmons wrote:

I've been using the beat wizard for four years now on every song I've done and I'm darn satisfied with the results.  (Follow website link below for videos)  Sometimes, in the first few seconds of a song you have to align some of the timings manually.  With songs that have changing tempos you sometimes have to do a section of the song at a time.  But other than that, it's pretty much dead on.  IMHO, the Beat Wizard is the single most important tool we have.

Hey George,

Can you use the beat wizard and have 1/20 sec timings integrated together ?

[George Simmons]

htebault wrote:

What is it that you are looking for most with x2, x3, x4 etc speeds ?

I have display elements that have 4 channels such as my beat trees and my nested boxes. Spinners have 6 channels, my arches have 7 channels, poles have 9, neighbor's doorway arch has 11, etc.

A 4x speed basically divides a beat into 4 cells. A 7x speed divides a beat into 7 cells, and so on. Having different timing grids that divide beats into different numbers of cells makes it simple to take different "size" display elements and program patterns for each that begin and/or end at precisely the same time.

Or if I want to change speeds during different parts of a song, just switch a 4x grid for a 6x grid and the same pattern, pasted by cell, moves 50% faster.

[George Simmons]

DLTSLC wrote:

Can you use the beat wizard and have 1/20 sec timings integrated together ?

Yes, you can have many different timing grids, of all types (Beat Wizard, Tapper, VU Wizard, fixed). You can only overlay one grid at a time, though.

Even though the events you program using one grid won't necessarily align with the timing marks of a different grid, the actual lighting event will not be moved or affected by overlaying a different set of timing marks.

[lightzilla]

htebault wrote:

George Simmons wrote:

htebault wrote:

Do you have any guidance on setting up the timing grid ? 1/10 of a second, 1/20th -

I think you'll find the 1/10 of a second a bit too imprecise, but you can use as many different timing grids as you want. Fixed grids, like those you asked about in your quoted post, won't allow you to move the timing marks. Freeform grids that the Beat Wizard and Tapper create DO allow you to move timing marks.

I don't use fixed grids, but when I create a new sequence I use the Beat Wizard to create multiple grids (beat x2, x3, x4, etc.) No matter whether they're fixed or freeform, timing grids can easily be swapped in and out so you can use different timing marks for different display elements or in different parts of the same song.

And as 'Zilla mentioned, the wave form is also an excellent guide. I use it all the time and as I was sitting here sequencing after responding to your query earlier, I realized I had totally neglected to mention it. Great save 'Zilla - it's been bugging me and I came back here to add that and saw you had already taken care of it.

Thanks for that note -

I have started looking at the waveform, but haven't yet gotten a link between that and the light sequence patterns.

In a nut shell the tapper, beat & wave tools show you the beat.

If you scale the "Wave Form" down you will see the "Beat" more distinctly.

Some use the "Beat" of the song for the house Windows, Roof line, Star Bursts Arches, Fire Sticks etc.

Then there is piano playing.....like Bruno Mars song "Just The Way You Are".....I did this song for my Wife's birthday in December & did it for a couple of others (decorators) too.

There is piano playing at the start etc........well I added that piano playing to the "mini trees"

Then there is guitar playing
Then the voice

I never really tried using the tapper on "words" but others might have. I basically stare at the grid & I keep an on on that "Cross hair" on the wave form and play it over a # of times and eventually I get the words down too.

Words of the song are good for those who do Halloween & who have singing pumpkins and what not. Or even for Christmas if you have a singing house (like George), a singing tree etc.

I use words for my mini trees or the Marty fan.......but it all depends on the song.

I also group the words together.....in other words........if there is 5 words leading up to where he carry a note then I fade up those 5 words & I fade down where the singer carries a note....(this is part of my timing marks)

Grouping the words make my mini trees, fan (s) flow.....I even use in on my tree (s)

Then I look at the the timing marks I put down & see where I want to use the various timing mark thru-out the sequence.

My set up does not allow me to do blinky blinkly & flashy flashy to the house its self & so my arches, fans etc needs to take care of that.

These year my Tree or trees on the deck (Lord willing) will be a lot different if things work out & so I cannot sequence like I have been for the most part.

You will notice in some of my songs like "Santa's Got A New Ride" I sped up the ending....well that was because I sub-divided that part of the sequence by 5 on a 0.10 timing grid

[RaceMedic]

Hello Everyone ...

I am trying to use the beat wizard and I can't figure something out.

My timing grid is 0.05 but when I run the beat wizard it is filling in 2 squares ... is there a way of reducing it to a single square marking ?!

Might be something simple but I have been looking for a bit now and can't see how to do it.

Thanks,


Dave

[George Simmons]

Dave,

Could you provide a few more details, specifically with regards to what you're trying to accomplish?

It sounds like you're trying to use the Beat Wizard on top of an existing fixed timing grid. To me, that seems a bit unorthodox - perhaps there's an easier way to get you to what you're trying to achieve.

[RaceMedic]

I try and use 0.05 sec spaces on all my grids due to my animated face etc. I am looking to mark the beats on that grid.

Maybe I am misunderstanding how the beat wizard works.

Dave

[DLTSLC]

RaceMedic wrote:

I try and use 0.05 sec spaces on all my grids due to my animated face etc. I am looking to mark the beats on that grid.

Maybe I am misunderstanding how the beat wizard works.

Dave

I'm trying to do the same thing. If I didn't misinterpret George, he suggested using both 0.05 timings as well as beat wizard on the same song? I haven't played with it to figure out how he was suggesting, but I need to have one box or finite amount of cells equal the beat and not have overlap into other cells for consistency/exactness.

Any suggestions out there ?

[George Simmons]

Guys - what I'm suggesting is for you to have multiple timing grids and then you can use whichever one you want/need for a particular purpose.

Let's begin with a fixed timing grid of .05. Sounds like y'all have that already. Now, if you want to create a grid that is based on the beat, open the Beat Wizard. Don't touch anything else - just go down and click on "New Freeform Grid", name it BEAT, Click OK. Then go down to the left and click on "Apply and Exit". That's all there is to it.

What will happen is that your previous fixed grid of .05 will be replaced by a grid that creates a timing mark where the beats occur. All of your previously sequenced lighting events will be unchanged by this - all that will happen is that now the timing marks will be in different places.

Whenever you want to go back to the .05 grid just go to the drop-down box labeled "Timings" and select your fixed grid. You can swap in and out as many different timing grids as you wish to create as often as you wish to change them. Again - the timing grid has NO EFFECT ON PREVIOUSLY SEQUENCED EVENTS unless you over-write those events with different lighting commands.

[htebault]

This has become a great advanced course on LOR sequencing/timing - I never would have tried the freeform grid idea if George had not pointed it out.
This forum rocks!

[Steven]

Here's another idea on integrating the a "Beat" timing and a "Fixed 0.05" timing:

After you have created both tracks, select the "Beat" timing.
Create a new channel called "Beat".
Put a fade down event in the first cell.
Copy and "Paste Multiple" to the end of the song.
Now select the .05 timing grid. You'll see both the .05 timing and the beats in the "Beat" channel you just created.

[eurbani]

lightzilla wrote:

I never really tried using the tapper on "words" but others might have. I basically stare at the grid & I keep an on on that "Cross hair" on the wave form and play it over a # of times and eventually I get the words down too.

I find it helpful to slow down the playback to half speed (1/4 speed doesn't seem to work). The song sounds weird, but it is very easy to find the beginning and ending of words.

[htebault]

eurbani wrote:

lightzilla wrote

I find it helpful to slow down the playback to half speed (1/4 speed doesn't seem to work). The song sounds weird, but it is very easy to find the beginning and ending of words.

Why is it that 1/4 speed does not work? I have some song's that would even 1/2 speed is too fast to easily catch the point I am trying to mark.