Dan Lott Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 Hello all this is my first post and i am hoping you guys can help me. I have 5 light o rama controllers that i will be running almost all of the 15 amps off each side. using a lot of c9s. I am putting a sub-panel in next to my house panel. I am going to have 10 20 amp breakers in my sub-panel to start with this year. 5 light o rama 10 plugs 10 breakers. using 15 amps on each board side but still putting 20 amp breakers in if i have to go to 40 amps my boards will hold. I am using number 2 wire 2 hots one neutral and a ground to the sub-panel that is 10 feet away. My question that i really have is what size breaker to put in my main panel. My lights do a lot of flashing so i will not draw as much as i am putting there but if i want to do it i am going to do it right. So i was thinking 60 amp but was wondering if i should put a 100amp in. the 2 gauge wire will handle 100 amp and my sub-panel is made for 100 amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ItsMeBobO Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 Not my area but I wanted to say Welcome Dan ! Plenty of knowledgeable helpers here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Fischer Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 10 20A (total of 120A) single-pole breakers needs a 60A double-pole (240V) breaker at most (60A per leg, x 2 = 120A)-Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Lott Posted October 19, 2009 Author Share Posted October 19, 2009 Thanks Tim.I forgot to say double pole breaker but that was what i was think but i was thinking that if i buy the 100 amp dp breaker now i would not need to worry that in years to come i would have to upgrade to that. so in the long run i will save a little money. Is my thinking right. But good to know that a 60 amp dp would do it so i was on the right track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Fischer Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 Assuming you're correct about the #2 wire allowing 100A (I'd have to look that up) it sounds good to me. But I'm not an electrician - might be best to wait for additional (and perhaps more qualified) opinions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlashDude Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 Copper or Aluminum? I used #2 copper for the 2 hots and the neutral runs for my 100 amp 240 volt sub-panel. (And #6 copper for the ground)If you’re using #2 copper, I would suggest going with the 100 amp double-pole breaker. It will give you room to add more in the future.If I’m doing my math right for max load, 60 amps (double pole / 240 volts) is not enough – 5 controllers X 2 sides X 15 amps each = 150 amps at 120 volts (or if balanced properly, 75 amps at 240 volts…)It’s good to go with the 20 amp breakers to leave some headroom. Be sure to match the outlets / GFIs, and the wire to the outlets (12 gauge copper) to the 20 amp breaker.Disclaimer: I’m not responsible if something goes wrong with your electric upgrade! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Lott Posted October 19, 2009 Author Share Posted October 19, 2009 Thank you so much and thanks to everyone. That is what i will do. copper number 2 and a double pole 100 amp breaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdowns Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 "I have 5 light o rama controllers that i will be running almost all of the 15 amps off each side."-------Maybe my arithmetic (or understanding) isn't good but in your original post you said you were going to pull all 15 amps per side on both sides (10) of 5 controllers. Isn't that 10*15 = 150 amps?I presume you have say - 200 amp service to your house? or less? If you turn all your outdoor lights on at once you're going to have lights inside your house go dim! And voltage drops aren't good for motors (like in the refrigerator compressor), etc.You may want to also consider upgrading the service to your house. Perhaps an additional 200 amp service just for your animated lighting. Your utility company would probably install that for a surprisingly modest cost. I had that done when refinishing a basement and in Atlanta that only cost me about $300. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmoore60 Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 Tim Fischer wrote: 10 20A (total of 120A) single-pole breakers needs a 60A double-pole (240V) breaker at most (60A per leg, x 2 = 120A)-TimCorrection here. 10 controllers X 20A = 200 amps of 120/2 =100 amp breaker.Sorry Tim....my first look said that was correct.Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlashDude Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 pdowns wrote: I presume you have say - 200 amp service to your house? or less? If you turn all your outdoor lights on at once you're going to have lights inside your house go dim! And voltage drops aren't good for motors (like in the refrigerator compressor), etc.You may want to also consider upgrading the service to your house. Perhaps an additional 200 amp service just for your animated lighting. Your utility company would probably install that for a surprisingly modest cost. I had that done when refinishing a basement and in Atlanta that only cost me about $300.With a 200 amp service... (at 240 volts.) If you "Balance" it with 200 amps at 120 volts on each leg, you can get 400 amps of 120 volt circuits...Quoting from another forum: "The simple way of saying it is that, for a balanced single-phase 120/240 volt system, all the current that leaves the source on one leg is going to return to the source on the other leg. It is not 100 amps on Phase A plus 100 amps on Phase B for a total of 200 amps. Rather it is 200 amps leaves on Phase A, and the same 200 amps returns on Phase B."I had issues with diming inside lights last year with only 2 fully loaded controllers (4 x 15 amps) I hate to see what this year brings!:shock: (Hopefully the new service and sub panel help!)I looked at a second 200 amp service, and the wire alone was over $300! (My 30 foot run of 3 #2 copper conductors and 1 #6 ground was over $100 on sale!) I figure I'll consider adding a second 200 amp service panel in a couple of years when the sub panel is full... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Lott Posted October 19, 2009 Author Share Posted October 19, 2009 Just wondering what you mean by balance and i get the 200amps leaving how are you getting the 200 amps returning. Also i want to put a 100amp 2 pole breaker in my box i want to put it on the side that is not used as much air. pool, electric stove i have gas, electric dryer again i have gas, so one side is pretty clear so i think it should go on that side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdowns Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 SlashDude wrote: I looked at a second 200 amp service, and the wire alone was over $300! (My 30 foot run of 3 #2 copper conductors and 1 #6 ground was over $100 on sale!) I figure I'll consider adding a second 200 amp service panel in a couple of years when the sub panel is full... I was only referring to what my utility company charged me to run their aluminum power lines underground to the outside wall of my house and install a meter. But to get the power inside and distributed, you get to spend more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmoore60 Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 Dan Lott wrote: Just wondering what you mean by balance and i get the 200amps leaving how are you getting the 200 amps returning. Also i want to put a 100amp 2 pole breaker in my box i want to put it on the side that is not used as much air. pool, electric stove i have gas, electric dryer again i have gas, so one side is pretty clear so i think it should go on that side.A 200 amp service in a residence is 200 amps at 240 vac. When you consider 120 vac load that is 400 amps.When you put in a 2 pole breaker you have a breaker on each buss, so you are pulling in your case 100 amps off each buss (side). What was said by balance is to put equal load on EACH side (buss).Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlashDude Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 pdowns wrote: I was only referring to what my utility company charged me to run their aluminum power lines underground to the outside wall of my house and install a meter. But to get the power inside and distributed, you get to spend more. That's not bad! I think another option would be to upgrade the meter base to 400 amps, and run 2 200 amp panels off that... (But that is a different topic! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlashDude Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 Dan Lott wrote: Just wondering what you mean by balance and i get the 200amps leaving how are you getting the 200 amps returning. Also i want to put a 100amp 2 pole breaker in my box i want to put it on the side that is not used as much air. pool, electric stove i have gas, electric dryer again i have gas, so one side is pretty clear so i think it should go on that side.The sides shouldn't matter because the poles usually alternate every other breaker slot... (You can kind of see this in top of the inside of my sub panel - http://lightorama.mywowbb.com/forum84/19695.html) But some brands may be different.I would HIGHLY recommend you have someone review your work (and/or plans)...Also, if you want to see a bunch of guys rip apart what NOT to do, check out http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/electrical-systems-home-inspection-commercial-inspection/ (I'm not affiliated, or an inspector - I found this site when I was researching what I needed to do for my sub panel.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max-Paul Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 The one thing I never seen addressed in any of these Sub Panel upgrades is this. I do not know if this is a DIY or if you are having a trained electrician do this upgrade. But when you go from a 100 amp panel to two 100 amp panels, I have to wonder.1) is the wire from the transformer to your meter is rated for 200 amps. Is the wire running from the meter to the original panel rated for 200 amps. And wer are you all tapping into, to feed the second panel? If it is a secondary breaker on the main panel. Changing out the main breaker from 100 amps to a 200 amp breaker. If this is such a hot idea, are the busses rated to carry 200 amps?What some people fail to understand is that there is not a Mega amp at your disposel just because you added a sub-panel. Everything to include the transformer must be rated at or greater than what you have in panel and breaker rating.Please be sure of what kind of service you have to your house before overloading this service. Breaker panels are not the end all when upgrading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Lott Posted October 19, 2009 Author Share Posted October 19, 2009 ok well i have a 200 amp main panel to start with witch means i am at a 200 amp meter box with then the power wire coming into the house which are only 7 years old should handle and be 200 Amp wires I am adding a 12 spot 100 amp sub-panel to my main panel off of a 100 amp 2 pole breaker in my main panel on the 200 amp buss. that then giving me 200 amp 120 v at 100 amp per side one in and one out. so the max that that panel can draw is 100 amp or the main breaker on the panel blows or the breaker in the main panel box blows but the main fuse in the main box will prevent me from ever going over 200 amps so i should not have to worry about frying any wire underground of in the trans. the sub panel is not trying to add more power just move it closer to where i need it. i will not be using much power draw out of the main panel cause while the show is on i will not be running any power eaters so in all i will never go over what the house can handle cause the lights wont and cant use over 100 amps and the house is on 200 amp service so i should be ok. That is my theory i would love to know if you think it will work or you are seeing something that i am missing with your last comment. I need every piece of info i can get my hands on. and yes is a diy project i do work in construction so i will have an electrician come and look at it before everything is all said and done i just like having the feeling that i figured it out and did the work myself. Part of the whole experience for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Lott Posted October 19, 2009 Author Share Posted October 19, 2009 sorry double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmoore60 Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Dan Lott wrote: that then giving me 200 amp 120 v at 100 amp per side one in and one out. so the max that that panel can draw is 100 amp or the main breaker on the panel blows ........What are you meaning when you say one in and one out? When talking 120 power it is from one side of the breaker to neutral. Not between the sides of the breaker.Please clarify what you are trying to say.Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownjm74 Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Dan,First I am not a licenced electrician however I have lots of residential wiring experience. Always remember to shut off the power when working, THIS STUFF KILLS!!! With that said,My first question is why are you installing a 100A sub right next to your Main 200A panel? Reason I ask is if you have slots on your existing panel than use those. Unless you wanted to mount the 100A sub at a distance away from the 200A Main, then I would use what you have. Just put the breakers down in the same row (this will balance your load).Also I don't know if your 200A panel is a 30-40 or 40-40. It should say on the paper that is on the inside of the lid. Reason I ask is if your box is an 30-40 you can use 10 "double breakers" not double pole. They have the size of a single pole breaker but they have two single breakers in one. ie (they just take the space of one breaker)However if you want to put the 100A panel in, use a 100A breaker to feed the new sub, Use #4 (Yes #4 for residential code, #3 for commercial) copper Hot, Hot, Neutral and #6 Ground. Remember that in the new Sub Panel you HAVE to isolate the Neutral and Ground. You will see a bonding bar in the new sub panel and you have to remove this bar and set the bonding screw(green in color) from the one bar into the panel. Also when wiring your new Outlets. You have to always keep the neutral and bare ground separate in this Sub Panel.Also another tip if you use Aluminium wire for the feeders of the 100A panel you need to use #2 and you may be able to find this as a "service entrance round" or SER. Being you are near Grand Rapids there are several electrical supply stores and usually you can get a better price.Sorry about the length but hopefully this helps you and others that are thinking of adding new outlets for their LOR.If you have any other questions please feel free to ask.Jeremy Brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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