Electrical Question

[Guest guest]

Here is some info I found while googling.

Go to this site to calculate wire size http://www.csgnetwork.com/wiresizecalc.html



Obviously I was using the highest number to calculate. 40 amps per box max (20 amps on each side) X 5 boxes gave me the 200 amps.

I realize 200 amps will probably be overkill which requires at least a #10 wire (depending on the length of run).

Hope this helps,

Tom

[Guest guest]

Hi gang,
acconding to the layout drawing and Lbarnes's profile, a couple of things come to mind. 1) This is in Florida, so no big issues with snow level, etc and 2) with the exception of the mega-tree, each LOL 16-channel isn't drawing a lot of current.

CAVEAT: My thoughts are based on the fact that each LOL may be "capable" of 40 amps of load, but looks like each one will NOT be used anywhere near that capacity. If you want to set-up a system where each LOL "node" can draw 40 amps......that's a whole different issue.

Therefore, there are a couple of potions; my assumption also is that this house has a basement or crawl space; otherwise EVERYTHING has to "star" back to the garage and be cord-connected.

The originator of this thread is asking whether or not 12-gague is "good enough" to go from the garage to junction box #1 and then from there to junction box #2....Well, 12-gague wire is "good enough" for that length if connected to no more than a 20-amp branch circuit breaker. So, some options are:

1) Consider putting one or two new 15 amp branch circuits from your main breaker panel (or fuse box?) in the house basement and drill-through the sill beam on the front of the house nearer to the windows and front door. Use a GFI breaker in the box or GFI outlet in a outdoor surface-mounted box hidden behind bushes, but up off the ground.

2) Otherwise, you can create a complete sub-panel box in the garage as others have suggested. This can be done by running a new 50-amp branch circuit with 220 (ala a new clothes dryer) out to the garage. My recommendation is to have a pro hook-up a "dryer" plug in the garage which can double as a way to hook-up a generator for power failures (a completely different subject...and may be frowned upon to back-feed the panel, but a lot of people do it). Then create a cord-connected sub-panel you can put away when not doing your (year-round) holiday display. Trade shows and convention centers you'll often see a sub-panel with duplex 15-amp outlets directly attached to the panel box. It's still a distance out to each "node" for the LOL controllers.

BUT.....in any of these scenarios, you're still running cord sets from the power source to the LOL controller or from the LOL controller to the individual circuits. My preference is to put the controller as close to the branch lights and ONLY rune one good cord buts Cat-5 control from the house out to the "focal point" for that particular control group..

ONE MORE THING:

If you add-on a 220-branch circuit or sub-panel, there are actually FOUR (4) wires traversing between the sub-panel and main panel. Two (2) "hot" wires (red & black), a white "neutral" wire and a copper earth ground. Yes, the common and ground basically are paralleled at both ends. Then each branch circuit taps off of the left-hand half of the 220 and the other breakers tap off the right-hand half, each getting a 3-wire 110 branch circuit.

[Guest guest]

my two cents - a good rule of thumb for wire size is - the breaker have the max wire size supported by the connection. Follow this and you can't go wrong. All breakers have this info posted on them. Its also great info for installing sub-panel breakers.

[Guest guest]

The size of the wire from your mains to your sub-panel is dependent on the size of the breaker you are feeding from. I have several pictures in the HOW-TO section of my website (listed in the sig line) of my sub panel.

If you look real close you will 8-15 amp breakers in my sub-panel. While you cant see the main, the main breaker feeding this panel is a double 70 and the main panel is a 200A service.

If you look closely at your subpanel, you will see that 1/2 the breakers are fed from one leg and the other half from the other. In my case, that puts a max 60 amp load on one side and a max 60 amp load on the other (remember the double 70 feeding it?)

In "GENERAL" (I specify general on the basis that the type wire and temp rating of the wire affects the ampacity ratings as well as free air or being stuffed into conduit)

#14 -- 15 amps

#12 -- 20 amps

#10 -- 30 amps

#8 -- 40 amps

#6 -- 55 amps


Mine is underrated at first glance but the type of wire I'm using actually allows it use up to 70 amps.

Size your wire (system) accordingly and as always if you have even the slightest doubt about your abilities or knowledge in this area consult a professional electrician.

A quick rundown of my setup ...

200 Amp service ---> double 70 breaker ----> 8 - 15 amp breakers ----> 8 15amp GFI duplex sockets ---> one pretty safe display.

-- Bob

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the information.

I like the sub panel idea the best. I am still unsure of the wire from the main to the sub. Santas Helper (aka tom) suggested #6 and I am leaning towards this. Up the wall, across the rafters and down the other wall, I am thinking it will use about 40 feet worth of wire. This is in fact a cement block house and no basement or hollow space underneath.

Is connecting into the main panel and bypassing using a brakeout circuit a big no no?

How can I tell what amperage my breaker box is?

From my sub panel to my outlets, can I run all of the wires in the same grey pvc tube or each circuit (5 total) in their own PVC.

If I can get the LOR units as close to the lights as possible, do I have to use extension cords to get to the LOR's or can I use some pre-rolled wire that comes in a bundle. What size / specs shoud I use for this that may also be rated for outdoor?

Thanks again kids. I can send pictures of the house to give ya an idea of it all..

[Guest guest]

llbarnes,

wow! Lots of questions and it "looks" like you want to D-I-Y but are uneasy. Therefore, get someone else who has some electrical background if you're not going to hire a pro. Always have two people around (with a 2x4) if you're going to work on a "hot" electrical panel. If you ask "why" do this...then get a pro.....I'll tell you later on, if you live long enouh..ha, ha

Now, from the main panel to the garage, run a 50' length of 6/4 Romex with a dual 50 amp breaker (as if you are setting-up a new clothes dryer outlet in the garage).

Go to Home Depot and get a 50 amp sub-panel. You can always tell the size of the panel (your main panel or the sub-panel) by reading the ampacity of the MAIN breaker in each panel. It has nothing to do with the "capacity" of the panel, but the physical numbers on the main breaker handle itself. Your house main breaker "should" be 150 to 250 amps......

When adding that 50-amp 220-V breaker to the main panel, either trip the master breaker but NEVER get near the top of the box, or go outside and ulplug the meter itself. Both of these poerations should be done by somebody who is VERY familiar with panels and new branch circuits.

Lastly, out in the garage, install the 50-amp sub-panel and a bunch of 15-amp or 20-amp branch circuits with GFI protection. The plugs can be located close to the panel and cords run out to the LOL controllers.

Yes, you can run the branch circuits from the garage out to areas of your lawn in electrical PVC, but those permanent conduits must be 24" below ground (hence you'll need a trencher) to meet electrical code in most states. This is like running power out to a swimming pool. Instead, just put the panel in the garage and run heavy-duty extension cords out to each LOL node.

Personally, I'd put the LOL nodes as close to the lights as possible and then run 18 ga wires from the LOL modules to each light circuit.

[Guest guest]

Here is a nice little voltage drop calculator.

http://www.stanselectric.com/page3.html

[Guest guest]

DrHitch wrote:

ONE MORE THING:

If you add-on a 220-branch circuit or sub-panel, there are actually FOUR (4) wires traversing between the sub-panel and main panel. Two (2) "hot" wires (red & black), a white "neutral" wire and a copper earth ground. Yes, the common and ground basically are paralleled at both ends. Then each branch circuit taps off of the left-hand half of the 220 and the other breakers tap off the right-hand half, each getting a 3-wire 110 branch circuit.

Neutral and Ground are NOT tied together at a sub-panel. A sub-panel must not have the bonding screw installed that grounds the neutral buss. Neutrals from the branch circuits tie to the ungrounded enutral buss, and grounds from the branch circuits tie to the grounded ground buss.

-jim-

[Guest guest]

Santas Helper wrote:

Here is some info I found while googling.

Go to this site to calculate wire size http://www.csgnetwork.com/wiresizecalc.html



Obviously I was using the highest number to calculate. 40 amps per box max (20 amps on each side) X 5 boxes gave me the 200 amps.

I realize 200 amps will probably be overkill which requires at least a #10 wire (depending on the length of run).

Hope this helps,

Tom

You are really talking about a 100A circuit, not 200A. And you said #10 wire, I assume you meant #1/0 which is a *lot* bigger.

I wouldn't get too hung up on using tha max capacity per card *5 for your calculations. To do that would mean installing a 100 amp 2-pole circuit to your sub-panel, probably overkill and expensive.

I would think you would do well with a 50A circuit using #6/4 wire. Then use 20A breakers for the branch circuits. I think you mentioned using 30A breakers at one time, but that is a no-no when wiring circuits for standard 120V receptacles.

You need to consider GFI protection also. If you use 2-pole breakers and 12/3 wire to your receptacles your only practical GFI option is to use GFI receptacles.

If you use single-pole breakers and run 12/2 to each receptacle you can use either GFI receptacles or GFI breakers.

In theory you could GFI-protect the whole sub-panel by powering it through a double-pole GFI breaker from your main panel, but that isn't really a good idea since a GFI trip will kill everything, and you will get a lot of those with all of the ground-fault currents from every circuit hitting a single GFI breaker.

-jim-

[Guest guest]

This is great information Jim. Thank you everyone again.