dragon8824 lights Posted December 13, 2021 Posted December 13, 2021 just wanting to make sure that this will work. currently I have a Mini show director that is going to a residential controller, and I want to start adding RGB lights. my idea is for the director to go into a USB hub that has the pixie controller and the residential controller on separate things. I have no idea if this will work or not, if you have any thoughts please voice them
k6ccc Posted December 14, 2021 Posted December 14, 2021 No. Since the Mini Director has no USB connection, I have no idea where you got the idea to use a USB hub. The Cat-5 cable from the Director goes to one LOR controller and then another cable from that first controller to a second controller. Continue for each controller. Note that with your Basic level software license, you can only control two Unit IDs. Pixie controllers use one U nit ID for each port. In other words, a Pixie 4 would use four Unit IDs. So an upgrade would be required. Part two is that Pixie controllers (at least the larger ones), require an Enhanced LOR network, which also requires a software upgrade. Details at the link below. https://www1.lightorama.com/showtime-sequencing-suite/#levels
dibblejr Posted December 14, 2021 Posted December 14, 2021 Update your license as my friend above says to Pro. If all of your controllers are farly new you will only need one network and your SD card and mini director will run it jut fine. JR
Yodlei Posted February 5, 2022 Posted February 5, 2022 I'm a newbie here & have a question/statement as this is a similar situation that I was going to post on. First, I'm not a techy but I learn pretty easy & am crafty. I researched for days & hours before jumping in & making my purchases after seeing some info on the Halloween Forum I'm a member of. The word "network" can be confusing as I was under the impression AC & pixies could work together under a Mini Director when I bought the TSO package & intended to jump into pixels eventually. The TSO page shows you can add a pixel tree. Maybe I'm not understanding something correctly but thought AC & pixels had to be run off different networks. If so, this is misleading if the mini will only accomodate 1 network. I don't have the ability to use a computer without it being a big pain so using a Director was a must & the reason I went with the package. In addition, if a 2nd Director is needed to run another network for smart pixels, how would they be synced? Assisting Dragon's question, there is a page that shows a multi-hub needed to run multiple networks but think that could only be done via computer & not a Mini Director.
Mr. P Posted February 5, 2022 Posted February 5, 2022 (edited) AC controller and pixels can run on the same network as long as you have the G3 AC controllers. Pixels require a higher network speed and the G3 controllers can do higher network speeds. The only thing that really limits you on the mini director is the channel count. If you need more then one network then LOR has bigger directors. Edited February 5, 2022 by Mr. P
Yodlei Posted February 5, 2022 Posted February 5, 2022 25 minutes ago, Mr. P said: AC controller and pixels can run on the same network as long as you have the G3 AC controllers. Pixels require a higher network speed and the G3 controllers can do higher network speeds. The only thing that really limits you on the mini director is the channel count. If you need more then one network then LOR has bigger directors. Thx for the quick response. TSO page doesn't say what generation the controllers are but just bought them in Dec. so I assume they would be the newest generation. Not sure I understand what the Director has to do with the channel count & thought it would max at gig count on the SD card (which I believe was 4 gig). Guess I won't worry about pixels yet since equipment was already bought. I ended up with 3 AC controllers so I have a lot of AC lights to play with.
TheDucks Posted February 5, 2022 Posted February 5, 2022 There is a physical data Channel count limit per Network. A Mini only has 1 Network. Pixiels, it is 3 channels per NODE or 150 per 50 node string. (or about 8 AC controllers equiv and that is just 1 string of 50)
Jimehc Posted February 5, 2022 Posted February 5, 2022 (edited) The TSO Package is Laid out to run everything from one 500k Enhanced Network... Including the Pixel Tree(s), RGB Windows and LOR Singing Trees... Edited February 5, 2022 by Jimehc
k6ccc Posted February 5, 2022 Posted February 5, 2022 13 hours ago, Yodlei said: Not sure I understand what the Director has to do with the channel count & thought it would max at gig count on the SD card (which I believe was 4 gig). To really answer this one, you need to learn some about LOR networking. I will tell you that parts of what I am about to say are not directly related, but it will help you understand it better. LOR uses an electrical standard called RS-485 for communications between a director or show computer and the lighting controllers. The RS-485 standard allows up to 32 actives on the network, and up to 4,000 feet of cable for the entire length of the network. The network shall be a single linear network as opposed to a star arrangement. In other words, from device A to B to C to D to E, etc as opposed to a hub (like a computer network uses). For LOR controllers, normally a Cat-5 cable is used in part because they are so readily available. The LOR network is NOT Ethernet (like your computer network). DO NOT plug one into the other. That can result in the magic blue smoke leaking out of something. RS-485 is an electrical standard. There are a number of commonly used data protocols that are used over RS-485. The two that we care about are Light-O-Rama and optionally DMX. DMX is the data protocol that is commonly used for things like stage lighting. Light-O-Rama came up with their own data protocol that has some major advantages over DMX. However most LOR controllers will respond to either DMX or LOR protocol. The rest of this discussion (except as noted) will be entirely about the LOR protocol over RS-485 networking. LOR networking can be run at several data speeds. For the most part, speeds have increased as there has become a need for more data capacity - mostly as channel counts have gone up. The slowest speed is 19.2K (or 19,200 data bits per second). Next is 57.6K, then 115.4K, then 500K, and currently the fastest is 1,000K. Some LOR devices (generally older ones) can only be run on some of the slower network, and some require the faster network speeds. In real simple terms, the faster the network, the more data that can be sent through it. How that relates to this discussion is more channels of lighting, and / or more complex channel changes. To understand that last statement, you need to understand a little more about how the LOR data protocol operates. The LOR protocol is an intelligent data protocol that understands that the controllers are fairly smart. So for example, if you have a single channel that you want to ramp up from zero to 100% over the next 1.5 seconds, the show computer or directer only has to send a single command such as: " Unit ID 01, channel 01, start at 0% and change to 100% over the next 1.5 seconds ". This is compared to DMX which is a very dumb protocol where every single channel has to be told what level to be at that time - about 45 times per second. Because of this difference, DMX has a hard limit of the number of channels on a network (512) whereas a LOR network will have more traffic if there are more channel changes. The old general rule of thumb was for a 115K network (the fastest that there was at the time) you could handle about 900 channels. Roughly scale that up or down for the higher and lower network speeds. If you have a VERY active show segment, you will have lower capability, whereas if you have a fairly sedate show, you can likely run more channels on a network. Back a half dozen or so years ago, LOR also introduced a change to the LOR networking called "Enhanced LOR" network (or ELOR). ELOR allows a considerably higher channel count, but some devices (mostly older ones) can not use ELOR, and the PixCom16 requires ELOR and the Pixie controllers either require or recommend ELOR (depending on who you ask). LOR has a handy chart that lists what devices will run on what types and speeds of LOR networking, so I am not going to re-type all that. Here is a link to that page: https://www1.lightorama.com/network-speeds/ So, the next part of this is how do you handle a situation where you either have more channels than the available networking will support, or devices that require non-compatible network type or speeds? The answer is multiple networks. Some of the Directors can support only one LOR network, and some can support more than that. The newest directors can be linked together to increase the number to the maximum (I'll get to that in a moment). When using a show computer instead of a Director, each network uses a USB to RS-485 adapter, so adding networks is a simple matter of plugging in an additional USB to RS-485 adapter. If you run out of USB ports, a USB hub can be used. A powered hub is STRONGLY recommended. The max limit is 16 LOR networks - regardless if using a show computer or Directors (although it is FAR easier to do with a computer!). In full disclosure, I run my show from a computer with two LOR networks for my year round landscape lighting and three LOR networks for Christmas. One more thing I will bring up. That is E1.31 networking. E1.31 is DMX over Ethernet. What that means is that have DMX networks operating over an Ethernet network (what your normal computer network runs). E1.31 is becoming far more commonly used because of the far greater use of pixels. Being Ethernet, a E1.31 network can be run over your standard home networking equipment (there are reasons to do it on a separate network however), including routers, switches, WiFi, or even point to point microwave links. Because of higher speed availability, it is easy to run several hundred thousand channels over a single cable. As far as I know, none of the Directors can handle E1.31. I use E1.31 for most of my lighting. Has your head exploded yet?
rmturner54 Posted February 7, 2022 Posted February 7, 2022 Thanks Jim, I wasnt part of this thread but that was a very good explanation of how it all goes together. I knew all of that from all years I have bben doing this, just needed a refresher and to dust off the cob webs. Thanks again
lightzilla Posted February 12, 2022 Posted February 12, 2022 I didn't get carried away sequencing the 5v smart pixel lights. (1,200) <--<< not much but my older Mini MP3 ran them along with Gen. 1 AC controllers & Gen 3 AC controllers at reg. Lor speed. 57.6K It is all in my video description. I have more videos from this past season but they are not edited yet. Everything ran smoothly all December even in -25 to -40 temps for 4 straight weeks. Here is 1 video 2021
Yodlei Posted February 14, 2022 Posted February 14, 2022 Thx All & sorry for the delay. B-I-L had quad bypass & I was their go for. Mr. P & The Ducks....appears the mini is my problem. The description under the TSO package should have a warning that the mini it comes with cannot be used with AC & pixels & will need to run off computer. Explains in a round-a-bout way by mentioning the Enhanced Network towards the bottom but not with a warning that adding a pixel tree or RGB floods will require a more advanced director. Jimehc..on that page many times but can't use with the mini director. k6ccc for taking the time...bookmarked your info for future reference & was a better explanation that what I've read so far. Lightzilla First, never heard of Kutless & really liked that song. This just took me backwards again since it seems you were able to do what I'm looking for. I'm not looking for anything too fancy & assume it's because it was kept at minimal colors & commands??
TheDucks Posted February 14, 2022 Posted February 14, 2022 The Mini is a simple controller. On top of that, you tried to use it with older AC hardware and newer-faster hardware. You needed to have 2 Networks, each with independent settings. A low cost (used?) 'Show PC' gives you flexibility but may pose a 'Security' (Dry, theft resistant) issue. 💡 Lock your laptop down if in a Garage or Shed to discourage wandering.
k6ccc Posted February 14, 2022 Posted February 14, 2022 My personal opinion here. I am not a fan of Directors - way too limiting. A simple PC to run a show does not take much. I generally recommend a desktop rather than a laptop. You get more computer for the money and a desktop is far easier to repair or upgrade. The computer does not really need to be near the lights. RS-485 networking can go thousands of feet. Audio can be more of an issue, but that can be taken care if you deal with it right.
Yodlei Posted February 14, 2022 Posted February 14, 2022 42 minutes ago, TheDucks said: The Mini is a simple controller. On top of that, you tried to use it with older AC hardware and newer-faster hardware. You needed to have 2 Networks, each with independent settings. A low cost (used?) 'Show PC' gives you flexibility but may pose a 'Security' (Dry, theft resistant) issue. 💡 Lock your laptop down if in a Garage or Shed to discourage wandering. Didn't try anything pixel yet...just planning. I see I probably needed the Director that can handle more than 1 network but not sure how Lightzilla was able to. I'm not worried about theft...live way out in the country which is why I probably won't invest as much as many of you do..not many people to see it even though anyone curious can see my lights from the highway. There are a few simple things I see in videos that leds just couldn't do but I've read a few posts where people in their early 60's are quitting or downsizing & I'm just starting. Not going up on a roof. Still have an old desktop on Win XP that hasn't been used in quite some time. Not sure if I can get software to download on it or not yet. Garage is unheated but will be heated soon. THX!
Yodlei Posted February 14, 2022 Posted February 14, 2022 36 minutes ago, k6ccc said: My personal opinion here. I am not a fan of Directors - way too limiting. A simple PC to run a show does not take much. I generally recommend a desktop rather than a laptop. You get more computer for the money and a desktop is far easier to repair or upgrade. The computer does not really need to be near the lights. RS-485 networking can go thousands of feet. Audio can be more of an issue, but that can be taken care if you deal with it right. I'm too old to go too big now even though I do in my mind. Just wanted to keep it simple & possibly use a few pixels eventually like I mentioned in my reply to TheDucks. I don't see many people decorating for other holidays but I do them all, especially Halloween, & DIY coro & using wire frames would be my preference. There are some things that Incand/Leds just can't do though. Thx!
rmturner54 Posted February 14, 2022 Posted February 14, 2022 27 minutes ago, Yodlei said: Still have an old desktop on Win XP that hasn't been used in quite some time. Not sure if I can get software to download on it or not yet. Garage is unheated but will be heated soon. THX! Somebody jump in here and correct me if I am wrong. I dont think Win XP will support the his lic level.
k6ccc Posted February 14, 2022 Posted February 14, 2022 Pretty sure XP will work fine for LOR. The download page says Windows 7 or newer, but pretty sure I was on S5 Pro when I was still running my old XP show computer. I can double check that tonight when I get home - that computer is still there, but not normally powered up.
rmturner54 Posted February 14, 2022 Posted February 14, 2022 Yep this is what is on the download page. I had an old laptop with XP. I dont remember the lic ver I was using, but when I upgraded to my current lic ver I had to move to Win7 or higher. Thats why I went with a director for the last year. I dont know what the cut off point is on XP. File name: LOR-5.6.8.exe Version: ShowTime Sequencing Suite 5.6.8 (aka: S5) Published: December 1, 2021 system Requirements Operating system:Windows 7 / 8 / 10* with the latest updates installed, with Windows Media Player 9 or higher, and .Net 4.8 or higher (.Net 4.8 will be installed with the software automatically, if not already present on your system) * a variant of Windows 10 called “Windows 10 S” is sold on a small number of new computers and only allows installation of apps from the Microsoft Store. Light-O-Rama software is not available from the Microsoft Store; however, you can switch out of “S mode” by following instructions from Microsoft and then you will be able to install the Light-O-Rama software. Processor:Intel or AMD, 1 GHz or faster Memory:Recommended amount for your version of operating system Hard Drive:At least 200 MB of free space (plus storage for sequences and audio/video files)
Yodlei Posted February 15, 2022 Posted February 15, 2022 3 hours ago, rmturner54 said: Yep this is what is on the download page. I had an old laptop with XP. I dont remember the lic ver I was using, but when I upgraded to my current lic ver I had to move to Win7 or higher. Thats why I went with a director for the last year. I dont know what the cut off point is on XP. File name: LOR-5.6.8.exe Version: ShowTime Sequencing Suite 5.6.8 (aka: S5) Published: December 1, 2021 system Requirements Operating system:Windows 7 / 8 / 10* with the latest updates installed, with Windows Media Player 9 or higher, and .Net 4.8 or higher (.Net 4.8 will be installed with the software automatically, if not already present on your system) * a variant of Windows 10 called “Windows 10 S” is sold on a small number of new computers and only allows installation of apps from the Microsoft Store. Light-O-Rama software is not available from the Microsoft Store; however, you can switch out of “S mode” by following instructions from Microsoft and then you will be able to install the Light-O-Rama software. Processor:Intel or AMD, 1 GHz or faster Memory:Recommended amount for your version of operating system Hard Drive:At least 200 MB of free space (plus storage for sequences and audio/video files) Thanks for posting this as I tried to find out how much hard drive space the software would take & wasn't finding it. My newer desktop is Win 7 (still old though) & I'm running low on memory due to all the videos I edit for window projection (along with my extensive bird/wildlife photo collection). Bought a new laptop this year since I intended to try house projection for Halloween & I'm not very savvy at computer requirements but wonder if I can run both at the same time. Will have to look into that. It's too much money to be left in a cold garage but for the house projection, it would only be outside if weather permits & while I'm out there as well.
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