CTB16PC connection issues

[Aggie]

I am running LOR V5.6.6 Pro, and have 6 CTB16PC LOR controllers in series via CAT 5e (or higher) cables.  The order is 5, 6, 1, 2, 3, 4  or 5, 1, 2, 3, 4, 6.  I know order does not matter, but I run into the same issue either way when trouble shooting.  For the first order, when I plug the Cat5 in to Controller 6 to go to 1-4, it makes the green light blink, and that controller stops working, then the controllers after that only partially work or not at all.  Using the second ordering, 5 to 4 work, but then I can not add controller 6 as plugging the cable in make the controller 4 stop working.  This happens whether the later controllers are plugged into the Cat5 cable or not.  It is as soon as the cable is plugged into the last controller in each setup, and I have tried different cables with the same end result.
 

I have done the LOR Hardware test with all controllers in series, and all work perfectly when I check each controller using the Test Console.  As soon as I start the program manually (no other changes) or as part of a show, the above issue starts.

[TheDucks]

53 minutes ago, Aggie said:

I am running LOR V5.6.6 Pro, and have 6 CTB16PC LOR controllers in series via CAT 5e (or higher) cables.  The order is 5, 6, 1, 2, 3, 4  or 5, 1, 2, 3, 4, 6.  I know order does not matter, but I run into the same issue either way when trouble shooting.  For the first order, when I plug the Cat5 in to Controller 6 to go to 1-4, it makes the green light blink, and that controller stops working, then the controllers after that only partially work or not at all.  Using the second ordering, 5 to 4 work, but then I can not add controller 6 as plugging the cable in make the controller 4 stop working.  This happens whether the later controllers are plugged into the Cat5 cable or not.  It is as soon as the cable is plugged into the last controller in each setup, and I have tried different cables with the same end result.
 

I have done the LOR Hardware test with all controllers in series, and all work perfectly when I check each controller using the Test Console.  As soon as I start the program manually (no other changes) or as part of a show, the above issue starts.

The controller that STOPS the steady LED (on others) has a bad RS485 chip (I suspect it won't release the bus).  Also, try without ELOR, (You don't need the thruput for dumb channels)

(HU does not use ELOR, which may account for things behaving better)

[k6ccc]

2 hours ago, TheDucks said:

Also, try without ELOR, (You don't need the thruput for dumb channels)

Unless using Motion Effects - which then requires ELOR.

 

[k6ccc]

2 hours ago, TheDucks said:

The controller that STOPS the steady LED (on others) has a bad RS485 chip (I suspect it won't release the bus). 

Or RJ45 jack with pins crossed.

 

[Aggie]

3 hours ago, TheDucks said:

The controller that STOPS the steady LED (on others) has a bad RS485 chip (I suspect it won't release the bus).  Also, try without ELOR, (You don't need the thruput for dumb channels)

(HU does not use ELOR, which may account for things behaving better)

Thanks for your help.  I should have mentioned I'm 3 years into LOR, and this is my first post.  I'm technical enough to get what you are saying, but new enough that I don't know how to do it.  Everything I have is as purchased, and I have only added extra controllers since year 1.  How would I try without ELOR (and what is HU)?   Would a bad RS485 chip cause issues for inbound or out bound transmission in the series of controllers?  I'm only using regular LED lights sets, so I'm not using any motion effects with these controllers.  I did check the pins, and do not see any that are obvioulsy crossed/bent.

I do also have a WowLights Intelligent E1.31 RGB 4 output controller running RGB lights, but even they are just staight strings of lights (C9 style), so my beginner set up is fairly simple.  These lights have their own issues this year, but that is a secondary problem.

[k6ccc]

6 minutes ago, Aggie said:

(and what is HU)?

The Hardware Utility.

 

[Orville]

Also check for a loose Cat5 connector on the Controller board.   I ran into a very similar issue this year with one of my G1 V2 Controllers, it was behaving erratically or not at all.  Opened it up, did a reset on it, as when I attempted to update FW because I also got a Bootloader PCV2 error, thought it had gotten fried.  Then I noticed when I unplugged the test cable from the farthest Cat5 jack, it has a lot of play in it, it needs to be re-soldered to reseat it, as when it jiggled just a wee bit, the controller LED would go out or blink so dimly or be on so dim that it looked like it was off.   I thought the controller was going to be useless and become a boat anchor. 

Fortunately, I just put it as the last controller in the chain, since the center cat5 jack is still in place and not loose.   A loose Cat5 jack on the PCB in the controller can cause all kinds of erratic issues.  And this controller has been in service for years, never had a connector come loose, this is the first one for me.   So after the season, it'll come down, take it apart and reflow the solder on the Cat5 connector, and hopefully once put back together, be 100% functional again.   I think the Florida heat where I live does a bad thing to solder joints, but I don't think that's what happened, but is a slight possibility.  I say that because I had that happen to another device a few years ago that failed {a component literally fell out it when I took it out of service after the season, and it was in direct sun inside a weatherproof box}.   Funny thing is, this controller with the bad cat5 jack hardly gets any sun at all where it's placed, mostly shady 95% of the time.   I think I might not have given the cable inside the controller enough slack before I clamped it down when I ran it to my N4-G4 Director, and possibly the strain pulled the connector slightly off the board {my own fault for that one}.   So always remember to give the cat5 enough slack, so this doesn't happen. {Also note to myself to do the same}.

Just something else to check and consider.

[Aggie]

Thanks to everyone for their help.  I was able to reorder the controllers by adding just one at a time until I found a sequence that worked (luckily 4 are in a small cluster), and replace one Cat 5 cable, and all is working.  I would say the Cat 5 cable was the issue, but I used it on a 7th controller that is connected seperately by itself, and there were no issues.  I will not touch it from here, and see if I can trouble shoot further after Christmas.  If anyone has insite on how to test different components within a CTB16PC controller, or knows a good video showing this being done, please let me know.  

[Orville]

38 minutes ago, Aggie said:

Thanks to everyone for their help.  I was able to reorder the controllers by adding just one at a time until I found a sequence that worked (luckily 4 are in a small cluster), and replace one Cat 5 cable, and all is working.  I would say the Cat 5 cable was the issue, but I used it on a 7th controller that is connected seperately by itself, and there were no issues.  I will not touch it from here, and see if I can trouble shoot further after Christmas.  If anyone has insite on how to test different components within a CTB16PC controller, or knows a good video showing this being done, please let me know.  

Do you have a Cat5 cable tester?  If not, I highly recommend you get one.   It'll save you a lot of grief and headaches tracking down bad Cat5 cables.  I check every cat5 cable every year before I put them into service, and I usually don't have issues with them.  But, I also check every new Cat5 I may open that hasn't ever been used.  On occasion, I've gotten bad ones right out of an unopened bag.   Best investment I ever made.  And you can often find them for around $5-$10.00, but that price may be up a bit now.

 

[TheDucks]

1 hour ago, Aggie said:

Thanks to everyone for their help.  I was able to reorder the controllers by adding just one at a time until I found a sequence that worked (luckily 4 are in a small cluster), and replace one Cat 5 cable, and all is working.  I would say the Cat 5 cable was the issue, but I used it on a 7th controller that is connected seperately by itself, and there were no issues.  I will not touch it from here, and see if I can trouble shoot further after Christmas.  If anyone has insite on how to test different components within a CTB16PC controller, or knows a good video showing this being done, please let me know.  

@Aggie I bought some 100'  'CAT5' cables from Amazon. They passed the simple tester (I don't have access to those $20K Flukes). They would not work on my LOR network (even when properly terminated)

I cut the end off and cut the jacket back. The Blue pair (what LOR uses) and Brown pair had 1/2 the twists as the 2 pair used for 10/100 Ethernet   Somebody saved a few cents per 100'

[k6ccc]

11 minutes ago, TheDucks said:

I cut the end off and cut the jacket back. The Blue pair (what LOR uses) and Brown pair had 1/2 the twists as the 2 pair used for 10/100 Ethernet   Somebody saved a few cents per 100'

That is very common on Cat-5 cable.  Apparently that is allowed per the spec (so I've been told).  Cat-6 does not allow that (again, as I've been told).  For what we are doing, it should not make much difference.  Remember that you can use untwisted telephone cable with LOR controllers.

 

[TheDucks]

Can you explain why distant controllers on 3 out of the 4 cables would not work (blinking LED)? Total length was under 500'.

(They seemed to work in a 10/100 network while I pulled wire to permanent wall jacks) That twist was all I came up with.

[Orville]

On 11/30/2021 at 11:05 AM, TheDucks said:

@Aggie I bought some 100'  'CAT5' cables from Amazon. They passed the simple tester (I don't have access to those $20K Flukes). They would not work on my LOR network (even when properly terminated)

I cut the end off and cut the jacket back. The Blue pair (what LOR uses) and Brown pair had 1/2 the twists as the 2 pair used for 10/100 Ethernet   Somebody saved a few cents per 100'

That's very interesting, TheDucks.  I've used my simple tester for years now, and only cables that did not pass didn't work.  Every cat5 I've ever bought and tested that passed with my el-cheap-o cat cable tester has never given me any issues at all.  So kind of a surprise to see you state yours passed and didn't work.   As long as the testers lights flow with the same number on each end, I've never had any cat cables fail, but if the numbers were skewed, like 6 lit on one end and 7 on the other, that was a fail and that/those cables would not work, I wouldn't even bother to try to use a cat cable that didn't give me a same LED to LED lit response with my tester.  I just mark that/those cables bad and cut the ends off, and use the wire {cable/s for speaker wire}, or in some other projects of mine.

[dgrant]

I use a Lowes bought tester and it has not failed to identify a cable issue yet. All cables and I've got a couple long ones, work. LOL, even one I spliced together to make it long enough to reach its destination! Yep, spliced the shield too.

[TheDucks]

4 hours ago, Orville said:

That's very interesting, TheDucks.  I've used my simple tester for years now, and only cables that did not pass didn't work.  Every cat5 I've ever bought and tested that passed with my el-cheap-o cat cable tester has never given me any issues at all.  So kind of a surprise to see you state yours passed and didn't work.   As long as the testers lights flow with the same number on each end, I've never had any cat cables fail, but if the numbers were skewed, like 6 lit on one end and 7 on the other, that was a fail and that/those cables would not work, I wouldn't even bother to try to use a cat cable that didn't give me a same LED to LED lit response with my tester.  I just mark that/those cables bad and cut the ends off, and use the wire {cable/s for speaker wire}, or in some other projects of mine.

As I alluded, it is NOT a pin out error, thus my Klien VDV Scout says PASS. I plugged the cable(s, yes I bought 4) into my Router-PC and ran a Speedof.me test: Really sad compared to older, full size CAT5 from Fry's