Pixcon 16 capability question

[BluMan]

Ok, I'm going to be general about this as I haven't locked down all the details yet but I want to ask this:

I went to Indiana's state fair grounds this year and they have this pixel tree that appears to be using the 300 pixels per string strings (I think they are the new INK based ones).  I also noticed that they had 32 channels (31 for the tree and one for the star).  Ok, I want to recreate that tree as the quality was very good.

When I look up these INK based light strips, I see they are 6amp per string (16.5 feet).  Has anyone "upgraded" the fuse blades on the Pixcon to handle light strips with this much amperage?  According to the website, you can put up to a 7.5 amp in each channel but I don't know if anyone has done more than the 4 amp it comes with. 

Now, with them being 300 pixels per string, my guess is I have to use DMX at that point as well?

I know all this is general but before I start buying the stuff to make this tree, I want to make sure what I have can handle it.  Any pointers will be greatly appreciated.  Thanks guys!  I have a picture of the bottom of the tree since I was driving as I was going by it.  I'll post that once I get it on the computer.

 

[BluMan]

[Mr. P]

That would be a lot of power injecting. Keep in mind that you not only have the amp limit per port but there is also an amp limit per bank, 32 amps, and an amp limit per controller, 64 amps. So it's not so much of raising the limit of the fuses but you would need to power inject every string in several places.

[BluMan]

And that's where my fear greatly increases.  I've never power injected before.  I understand what it does, I'm just afraid of having a smoke show rather than a light show.  So, is it the fuse that controls how much amperage goes through the board?  So, say I was to leave the 4 amp blade in there, I would have to see where the pixels get weak in that light string and inject there?

I did forget the bank/board amps so that's something I will have to figure out for sure.  That tree in the picture was flat and all the 'tronics' were attached to the back of it.

 

[Mr. P]

When you power inject you are bypassing the fuses so the amps per port, bank or controller doesn't really matter at that point. On the flip side you then need to consider tying the grounds, negatives and all that other stuff together. Personally I refuse to power inject but there are others on here who will explain in depth all that will be required so everything doesn't go boom.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Mr. P

[TheDucks]

1 hour ago, Mr. P said:

That would be a lot of power injecting. Keep in mind that you not only have the amp limit per port but there is also an amp limit per bank, 32 amps, and an amp limit per controller, 64 amps. So it's not so much of raising the limit of the fuses but you would need to power inject every string in several places.

Expanding on the Per Bank: The traces on the board have Amp limits. Over Amping the trace can cause the trace to de-laminate from heat OR simply act as a Fuse and burn open. either condition is terrible.

 

I do wonder why the board layout feeds power from the END of a bus. Feeding midpoint (between ports 5+5, 12-13) would increase the capacity for the same copper.

If you do power inject, remember to tie all negative terminals  used with that bank, together. Also if yo feed the Inject points from a different supply, then (only) the +   lead between the node GROUP needs to be cut so the supplies do not fight.

[Mr. P]

See, this is why I don't power inject, too much stuff to go wrong (KISS).

[TheDucks]

19 minutes ago, Mr. P said:

See, this is why I don't power inject, too much stuff to go wrong (KISS).

I hate 5V.  Inches matter 🙄 for load (I*R) balance.

I discovered this when building a Prototype card cage. I had injected power ever 4th slot (1" spacing) with a neat harness of 10Ga. Under load the nearest to the PSU end was carrying almost 50% of the PSU capacity instead of dividing evenly between the other leads.

If you pay attention to ALL (I notice folk tend to cherry pick which they follow, which is not good for many things with power) the design rules. power Injection can be fine.

[BluMan]

All great information.  Here is where I'm at right now.  Since the strip is 6 amps and 16.4 feet long, if I split those strings in half, then thats only 3 amps per port and I can power inject once to get the other half of the strings working.  Now, these particular strips are 14.4 watts per meter so @ 2.5 meters, that would be 36 watts per port, times 8 ports = 288 watts per bank.  That tells me that 1 350 watt power supply should be able to handle for front halves of 8 strings and another power supply should be able to handle the other half of the 8 strings.

Now, since I don't get that power can be injected at the end as well as in the middle, I'm thinking of using a "T" connector in the middle with the incoming +V pin missing so that ground and data are still connected and power can be safely injected.

So, for 16 strands, I will need 4 power supplies and some "T" connectors.  With 32, I'd double that. 

Does that sound doable?  I think it does but I also highly trust others on here.  Thanks for all the help!

[dgrant]

I would think you should be able to use a second controller and set them up with the first controller, run the first half of each string/strip. The second controller set up to run the second half of each string/strip. You would have to sever the string/strip and solder on new connectors but that would remove the power injection needs. Essentially you would be dividing your strips/strings in half and separately controlling each half without any worries on cooking a controller. 

[TheDucks]

55 minutes ago, BluMan said:

All great information.  Here is where I'm at right now.  Since the strip is 6 amps and 16.4 feet long, if I split those strings in half, then thats only 3 amps per port and I can power inject once to get the other half of the strings working.  Now, these particular strips are 14.4 watts per meter so @ 2.5 meters, that would be 36 watts per port, times 8 ports = 288 watts per bank.  That tells me that 1 350 watt power supply should be able to handle for front halves of 8 strings and another power supply should be able to handle the other half of the 8 strings.

Now, since I don't get that power can be injected at the end as well as in the middle, I'm thinking of using a "T" connector in the middle with the incoming +V pin missing so that ground and data are still connected and power can be safely injected.

So, for 16 strands, I will need 4 power supplies and some "T" connectors.  With 32, I'd double that. 

Does that sound doable?  I think it does but I also highly trust others on here.  Thanks for all the help!

NO to using a 'T' , since you are using a different supply. You do NOT want the (different supply)  +12's connected together.  (missed the removed pin from the previous segment) Where the inject point happens then is more a case of convenience: end or cut point .

If you don't have the controllers yet: use Pixie 8's ( a bit more cost, but simplifies the inject) . The bank size is 4, leaving the rest of your 350W PSU for power injecting THOSE Strings. No need to cut when done that way.  1 PSU per Bank: 100 nodes per port  (w Power inject) 350W PSU is a great choice as you are running MAX load at the 80% 👍 point

[BluMan]

40 minutes ago, TheDucks said:

NO to using a 'T' , since you are using a different supply. You do NOT want the (different supply)  +12's connected together.  (missed the removed pin from the previous segment) Where the inject point happens then is more a case of convenience: end or cut point .

If you don't have the controllers yet: use Pixie 8's ( a bit more cost, but simplifies the inject) . The bank size is 4, leaving the rest of your 350W PSU for power injecting THOSE Strings. No need to cut when done that way.  1 PSU per Bank: 100 nodes per port  (w Power inject) 350W PSU is a great choice as you are running MAX load at the 80% 👍 point

That's an idea.  Just know, based on the picture of the tree I added to this thread, it appears that these strings are 300 pixels each.  60 leds/M.  Does that change this idea at all?

[BluMan]

1 hour ago, dgrant said:

I would think you should be able to use a second controller and set them up with the first controller, run the first half of each string/strip. The second controller set up to run the second half of each string/strip. You would have to sever the string/strip and solder on new connectors but that would remove the power injection needs. Essentially you would be dividing your strips/strings in half and separately controlling each half without any worries on cooking a controller. 

I didn't think of that.  Since the tree is 32 strings, that would mean I would need 4 Pixcon 16's to run this tree.  Can you make a prop that big in LOR and if you could, you can program it in SuperStar?  I knew this project would be expensive so this different idea increases the cost a bit but reduces me power injection fears.

 

[TheDucks]

8 minutes ago, BluMan said:

That's an idea.  Just know, based on the picture of the tree I added to this thread, it appears that these strings are 300 pixels each.  60 leds/M.  Does that change this idea at all?

Pixcon16 and Pixies are different beasts, which may be a problem for you if you need E1.31 (Pixies only do RS485 connections and Pixielink has not been released???)

I work (think) in node count and Amps. 60 LPM could be triples (20 addressable nodes), which is what my toe dip into smart ribbon netted me. Depending on your Tree, your controller location (or locations: Top, bottom) , there are to many variables to even start saying "you MUST do this (other than power and the data in length guidelines)

[BluMan]

12 minutes ago, TheDucks said:

Pixcon16 and Pixies are different beasts, which may be a problem for you if you need E1.31 (Pixies only do RS485 connections and Pixielink has not been released???)

I work (think) in node count and Amps. 60 LPM could be triples (20 addressable nodes), which is what my toe dip into smart ribbon netted me. Depending on your Tree, your controller location (or locations: Top, bottom) , there are to many variables to even start saying "you MUST do this (other than power and the data in length guidelines)

Although these aren't the ones I was looking at, they have the same power requirements.  They are just very expensive at this point.

 

https://www.amazon.com/VISDOLL-Individually-Addressable-Programmable-Waterproof/dp/B07KXNCM5R/ref=sr_1_21?dchild=1&keywords=dc+12v+16.4ft+5m+rgb+led+strip+light+ws2815+led&qid=1607615516&s=hi&sr=1-21

 

[Little_b]

Thought I'd chime in here a little.  Just my opinion.  You could run this on 2 Pixcon16's if you power the strips from the power supply rather than the ports.  I did this on my matrix running on E1.31 using Pixel Nodes.  Each strand is 126 Nodes long, 63 down, 63 up.  I built my own boxes that contain 1 Pixcon16, 3 power supplies, and 2 8 count ATC Fuse holders each.  I run a + wire from the power supply to the each fuse.  I have a connector that comes into the box: + goes to the fuse, the - to the - terminal on the power supply, and the Data to the output on the port.  I also run a wire from the - pin on the output to the corresponding - terminal on the power supply that the connector is attached to.  Each power supply runs 5 outputs each totaling 28Amps, almost maxing out the 30A power supply.  Now I never use full white so it never really comes that close to pulling 28Amps.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5ijvhd0ea9z6u1v/Matrix Board 3.jpg?dl=0

I've never used the 300LED/ 100 pixel count strips before so I'm not an expert on power drop on a single strand, but I can't imagine it being very much and needing to power inject as it is meant to run off a single input.  If you connected 2 strips (16.4' Long) together (32' Long), then I see the need to power inject.  Trial and error has always been my friend.

You can create a Prop in LOR big enough for your Tree.  My matrix is 126 pixels wide by 63 tall.  In my preview I created 4 matrices, one per controller, then grouped them together for one big matrix.  I did this for my sequencing needs as I break it up from time to time.

[KYHI]

On 12/10/2020 at 10:54 AM, BluMan said:

Although these aren't the ones I was looking at, they have the same power requirements.  They are just very expensive at this point.

https://www.amazon.com/VISDOLL-Individually-Addressable-Programmable-Waterproof/dp/B07KXNCM5R/ref=sr_1_21?dchild=1&keywords=dc+12v+16.4ft+5m+rgb+led+strip+light+ws2815+led&qid=1607615516&s=hi&sr=1-21

 

Sorry just noticed your link is 4 wire

 

Edited December 22, 2020 by KYHI