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running dedicated lines for lor boxes


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i am a person who loves to ask b4 i do, that way when im done i dont read some post and say, "i should have done that" so here is my question:

i am going to run 3 dedicated outlets for my lor boxes (one outlet per breaker per box)

i was going to use 12/2 outdoor cable, 20 amp gfi outlets in weather proof cover and a dedicated 30 amp breaker for each.

anyone have any thing i should do different or add anything?

is this total overkill?

i am running 3, 16 channel lor boxes

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Overkill? Not really.

A CTB-16D can run a maximum of 40 amps, 20 per side. (That requires modifications, by the way.) The standard setup will yeild 30amp total, 15 per side.

I would have loved to have your proposed setup for my display. That extra 10 amps per circuit makes a difference.

Now, what I can't advise you on is if it's up to code. Someone else would have to speak to that. I simply don't know without looking it up.

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fdny260 wrote:
i was going to use 12/2 outdoor cable, 20 amp gfi outlets in weather proof cover and a dedicated 30 amp breaker for each.


12/2 UF is rated for 20 Amps. With a 30 Amp breaker you have a significant chance of overheating the cable.

Also, it appears that each side of the LOR board 1-8, and 9-16 are rated for 20 Amps each for a total of 40 Amps. I believe if you ran 10/2 which is rated for 30 Amps there may be issues at the board level.

I would run 12/3 (Blk/Red/Whi with a ground) and provide 2 - 20 Amps circuits. The 2 breakers for this have to be adjancent so they are on different sides of the line to balance the neutral. You would then have 2 - 20 Amp circuits at each location.

There are those that don't agree with sharing a neutral. It makes a much cleaner panel, reduces voltage drop, and is (or at least was when I was an electrician) perfectly legal.

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I just finished a week long vacation.. ok I worked on the house all week.
One of my projects was installing 6 20 Amp circuits to run the Show.
that included 4 in the yard (at 2 different locations) in weatherproof
boxes with in-use covers, and 2 in the attic (to power the roof lights).
In the process, I also installed a 60 amp sub panel in the garage.. for
future expansion. It cost me about $250 for all the materials, but I
did all the work myself. While I was at it I also installed 2 motion sensing
spotlights at the peak of the roof(s) for security. This year I will be
using LOR for the first time, and will be using 3 16 channel boards.
Each board will have a full 40 amps available.

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fdny260 wrote:

i was going to use 12/2 outdoor cable, 20 amp gfi outlets in weather proof cover and a dedicated 30 amp breaker for each.





Hang on. If I'm reading this right, this is NOT SAFE. The maximum breaker that you can legally (and safely!) place in a circuit with 12-gauge wire is 20A. A 30A breaker will not protect the wiring, and be a potential fire hazard if/when the circuit gets loaded over 20A. (The 20A GFCI outlet does NOT protect against overcurrent...)

Please use no greater than a 20A breaker on these circuits!

-Tim
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CharlieAirey wrote:

There are those that don't agree with sharing a neutral. It makes a much cleaner panel, reduces voltage drop, and is (or at least was when I was an electrician) perfectly legal.

The shared neutral is fine IF it is wired correctly. As you noted, you have to have the two hots on opposite 'legs' of the panel (normally ensured by a double-pole breaker). If this isn't done, the neutral can become easilly overloaded, and cause a fire hazard.

Just clarifying for others who might otherwise try something unsafe...

(Additional techie note: the reason this works, is that if the hots are on opposite legs, the neutral only will carry the 'difference current' between the two legs. If the legs are equally loaded, the neutral won't carry any current. If the hots were from the same leg, the neutral would need to be sized to carry the combined current from both legs.)

-Tim
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Brad,

That is the funniest picture I have seen on PC. All joking aside the motto when wiring anything is to "do what ever you can afford." If you can afford to burn your house down and put your family at risk ...then press on. If you are not comfortable with that idea or really know what your doing...... pay someone who does! It WILL be worth it. At work I size the wire for the amperage expected on the circuit along with the lenght of the run to figure in voltage drop. You run 20 amps through a #12 extension cord for 300'......for a while...then, your gonna have problems.

Reminds me when I would drive to college I would pass a cafe' that was being built right off the highway. One day I drove by and before the cafe' was completed it had burnt to the ground. I'll always remember the big outdoor sign soon after that . A company named Wiley Electric did the wiring on the cafe'. The sign read " Wiley wired number one, Wiley won't number two." It has stuck with me for over 20 years! Don't let your Christmas experience be one like that !! Be Safe, Be Careful. Stay alive.

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Don wrote:

Overkill? Not really.

A CTB-16D can run a maximum of 40 amps, 20 per side. (That requires modifications, by the way.) The standard setup will yeild 30amp total, 15 per side.

I would have loved to have your proposed setup for my display. That extra 10 amps per circuit makes a difference.

Now, what I can't advise you on is if it's up to code. Someone else would have to speak to that. I simply don't know without looking it up.
what kind of modifications are required to run 40 amps? if its major i will just run the 15 per side (30 amps)
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fdny260 wrote:

Don wrote:
Overkill? Not really.

A CTB-16D can run a maximum of 40 amps, 20 per side. (That requires modifications, by the way.) The standard setup will yeild 30amp total, 15 per side.

I would have loved to have your proposed setup for my display. That extra 10 amps per circuit makes a difference.

Now, what I can't advise you on is if it's up to code. Someone else would have to speak to that. I simply don't know without looking it up.
what kind of modifications are required to run 40 amps? if its major i will just run the 15 per side (30 amps)

You have to change the fuses that are sent with it. We ship them with 15 amp fuses. I believe this to be the safest thing for everyone.

If you want 40 amps then replace the two fues with 20amp fast acting fuses.
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Some basic information that may be useful -
The way power is provided by your utility is by using a transformer derived from a single phase of high voltage going to the input & a 240v center tapped output. Since the tap is at the center of the 240v side of the transformer, 1/2 that voltage exists between either hot & the tap. Because the tap is at the center of the transformer, the currents between the two hots & the tap are 180 degrees out of phase with each other, and will be subtractive, which is why it is called a "neutral". Generally, the center tap is grounded. Again, this is defined by electricians & code as single phase. Edison circuits also cannot be used with normal 120V GFCI breakers -- although you ought be able to use the new (and expensive) 240V GFCI breakers on them.

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CharlieAirey wrote:

fdny260 wrote:
I would run 12/3 (Blk/Red/Whi with a ground) and provide 2 - 20 Amps circuits. The 2 breakers for this have to be adjancent so they are on different sides of the line to balance the neutral. You would then have 2 - 20 Amp circuits at each location.

There are those that don't agree with sharing a neutral. It makes a much cleaner panel, reduces voltage drop, and is (or at least was when I was an electrician) perfectly legal.

It would be best to use a double pole breaker.

TED
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TED wrote:

CharlieAirey wrote:
fdny260 wrote:
I would run 12/3 (Blk/Red/Whi with a ground) and provide 2 - 20 Amps circuits. The 2 breakers for this have to be adjancent so they are on different sides of the line to balance the neutral. You would then have 2 - 20 Amp circuits at each location.

There are those that don't agree with sharing a neutral. It makes a much cleaner panel, reduces voltage drop, and is (or at least was when I was an electrician) perfectly legal.

It would be best to use a double pole breaker.

TED

Wouldn't this cause a challenge to the function of the GFI? (I'm not an electrician, so if I'm way off base, educate me). Doesn't GFI monitor the difference between hot and neutral, and when the difference goes out of a preset tolerance range, it trips? With taking a hot off of two seperate phases, the neutral would only handle any imbalance from the other two phases? So, this may work, and be legal in circuits not destined to be a GFI protected circuit, but practically everything we would run for Christmas lighting requires a GFI, right?

I'm working through this right now to see if I can buy 500 ft. of 12/3, or if I'm going to have to buy 1000' of 12/2.

Moving Target in NC
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A believe a pair of GFIC receptacles would work fine with 12/3 since they are after the neutral split. You can not use single pole GFIC breakers. You could use a double pole GFIC breaker. If you can find a double pole, and IF you can afford it. I know they make double pole 50's for hot tubs. I don't recall seeing a double pole 20.

Charlie

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CharlieAirey wrote:

A believe a pair of GFIC receptacles would work fine with 12/3 since they are after the neutral split. You can not use single pole GFIC breakers. You could use a double pole GFIC breaker. If you can find a double pole, and IF you can afford it. I know they make double pole 50's for hot tubs. I don't recall seeing a double pole 20.

Charlie









2 Pole 20A GFI breakers are available but not comman, and yes, quite expensive. If I needed GFI protection at the panel I would just run separate runs of 12/2 and forget the shared neutral, the few $ saved in wire cost isn't worth the hassle and expense of having to deal with 2-pole GFI breakers.

Or, install GFI receptacles at the far end. The other down-side to the 2-pole GFI is that a nuisance trip takes out 2 circuits instead of just one.

-jim-
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CharlieAirey wrote:

A believe a pair of GFIC receptacles would work fine with 12/3 since they are after the neutral split.

I do exactly this on a couple shared-neutal circuits.

-Tim
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As long as the neutral is only shared up to the line side of the GFI, you should be fine. If you have extra outlets downstream on the load side, the neutrals must remain separate from that point on.

So basically, shared neutral from panel to GFI, then seperate neutrals after the GFI's

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