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Can LOR Control This?


Texan78
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Ok for awhile I have been trying to introduce Flames into my displays. Mostly for Halloween but I am doing the Disneys "Beleive in Holiday Magic" for Christmas and I have a perfect spot for these and was wondering if LOR can control them? They are fully DMX 512 and the fuel sorce is contained in the base of the unit. You can get the flames in different colors. I just came across these from a friend so it is to late to add this year since the programming is done for this year. So if these will work with LOR I wanted to use them as I have a perfect sport for them. Before you ask they are dirt cheap and you will have a heart attack like I did when you hear the price.

Flame.jpg

Here is a video of them in action... This is actually perfect because this song is in part of the Disney song I am doing.

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If they are DMX capable, then probably yes. Go ahead, give us the heart attack. I check their site, not a lot of info. I find it interesting that they are advertising these as dmx controllable as dmx protocol is not approved for pyrotechnics.

It would be cool to have a few to play with.

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The company in the video is not where I bought them from. It was just a video that shows what they do. I bought them from another place and they ship from a slow boat from China for $160 a pop.

You are right dmx protocol is not approved for pyrotechnics. In this case I am not sure if they are truly classifying this as a traditional pryo device though. These are only 2 channel fixtures armed and fire. Even though DMX doesn't have error checking I have witnessed several of these controlled by DMX without error. I think Charles Belcher might be able to add more clarification since he uses something simliar in a display he does for the Texas State Fair. I think the ones TSO use are DMX as well.

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These are NOT pyrotechnic devices!

They are Gas Flame Projectors which have their own fire code rules and regulations. You will need to keep the public from them as they are automatically controlled.



I do pyrotechnics for a living and we use those types of equipments in specific venues in conjunction with other devices in shows.


Those things need protection/fences/barricades and have environmental requirements. Check with your local and state fire marshals before running them. They may require you to have special insurance for their usage also.



DMX can control them as it is just an on/off control as the flame projectors itself need to have all of the required gas controls and fail safes. You will need to disarm the flame system before you first turned your lighting system on.



Be careful with the imported equipment! They have to have the required piping, gas valves, and correct electrical code controls. This becomes the responsibility of the importer/owner of the equipment.



DMX and LOR system usually flash all of the channels and circuits which may fire these when you first initiate your programs. That is okay if it is just lights, but no good if it is fireworks, pyrotechnics, lasers, and gas flames as they the show is over before it gets going!:shock:



We use multiple hybrid firing systems for all of this, with spotter watching for an all clear signal before arming the controls and doing any testing.

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Copied this from the site you posted.

Professional stage effect device,producting simulated flames that give you an

experience of strong visual empowerment and create for you an aboriginal fervent

flaming world!It has two control modes MX512 and wire-control.



What exactly is "simulated flames"?



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Per NFPA 1126: Standard for the use of Pyrotechnics before a Proximate Audience

1.5.48 Pyrotechnic Device. Any device containing pyrotechnic
materials and capable of producing a special effect as
defined in this standard.

1.5.49 Pyrotechnic Material (Pyrotechnic Special Effects
Material). A chemical mixture used in the entertainment
industry to produce visible or audible effects by combustion,
deflagration, or detonation.

1.5.50 Pyrotechnic Operator (Special Effects Operator). An
individual who has responsibility for pyrotechnic safety and
who controls, initiates, or otherwise creates special effects.

If it looks like a pyrotechnic device and it smells like a pyrotechnic device....
For those that suggest it is not, please provide the appropriate clarifying information.
Being in the fire department, I can tell you that your local jurisdiction having authority (JHU) would probably be very interested in your use of these devices. You can read 1126 and decide if its worth the effort.
http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/pdf/1126.PDF


With that said, I would sure like to have a few of these!


A quick search found this requirement for Clark County Nevada. Just and FYI:

http://fire.co.clark.nv.us/(S(abfcfe2termp5i45oe5imrub))/Files/pdfs/OpenFlame.pdf

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I beg to differ with you.

Look at the scope of NFPA #1126 - 2001 as I have copied the scope here for you:



Committee Scope: This Committee shall have primary responsibility for documents on the controlled use

of flame, pyrotechnics, or other means of special effects for entertainment, exhibition, demonstration, or

simulation before a proximate audience; and the design, fabrication, installation, testing, control, operation,

and maintenance of user equipment, fuel storage, and sources for special effects before a proximate

audience.

This Committee does not have responsibility for documents on hazards other than those involving a proximate

audience and the life safety considerations of the audience.



Flame is listed as its own item followed by pyrotechnics.

Please read NFPA #160 for more information on gas controls.



I use to be a principal member of this committee during the 1990’s.

That means I help write that code.



If you read ALL that I posted you should be able to understand it then!



I still am a principle member of 5 other NFPA fire codes which include but not limited to NFPA #1123 and NFPA #1124 which both deal with Pyrotechnics, & Fireworks. Both of these codes are in cycle revision at this time. In fact we just had a meeting in Minneapolis MN 2 weeks ago on both of those codes.

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Oh my goodness. You might be opening up a can of safety and legal worms. I tend to agree with Jeff on this one. I've got some experience with these sort of things. We called them a generic name of "Fire Canons". Even I would not attempt to use these things in my display and I've done some pretty strange stuff ;-)

If you plan to go ahread with using them,. please check with local authorities first.

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I would not use them but I HAVE used them for indoor controlled displays.

Couple of notes- NFPA is not the prevailing code for ALL municipalities. Many municipalities that DO use NFPA for life/safety codes STILL classify a flame device for theatre as a SPECIAL EFFECT and do not require it to meet the full scope of the pyro sections of the different NFPA references.

So it varies. And there is NO ONE good answer for all municipalities. EXCEPT: Don't EVEN THINK ABOUT using that in an outdoor show with a live audience without two firetrucks, spotters, deadman controls, fences, guards, EMT standby service, emergency shut-offs, and about 40 million dollars worth of liability insurance. (not a broker- you may really need more than 40m- consult YOUR broker:))

But one person trying to classify it as a certain type of device against ONE code. If it fits THAT criteria, then under THAT code it is that device. But there are HUNDREDS of codes and within a 40 minute drive of my city are 13 other municipalities that ALL use different codes. It makes it hard to keep up with them all. i do agree that NFPA has been the MAJORITY prevailing codes adopted by cities for life saftey. But even the cities use that code differently. NFPA has no authority to enforce codes. They just write them for people to adopt. And they do a good job. That said- not everyone uses them, and the ones that do don't always use them the way they are written.

I think the theme here is right... that it is too dangerous to even think of for a residential show. Cool as heck... but dangerous.

RW

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As is often the case with NFPA, the standards are not real clear. Take the following from 160:

1-1.3

This standard shall not apply to the following:

  1. Flame effects produced solely by pyrotechnic special effects devices

160 does not offer a definition of pyrotechnic special effect device. 1126 does as noted in my previous post. There are many NFPA standards that would also apply (NFPA 30 – flammable and combustible liquids, NFPA 54 National Fuel Gas Code, NFPA 59a Storage and handling of LNG, NFPA 101 Life Safety Code, etc).

Having just read both standards, NFPA does not make a clear classification either way. It is important to remember that NFPA is recommended guidelines. Each jurisdiction will decide how to handle these devices. Some small towns might say, sure just don’t hurt anybody, while larger jurisdictions might hold you to 1126, 160, or similar standards. It will all depend upon local fire code.

In addition, by their very nature, these devices could be deemed an attractive nuisance making the owner/operator solely and strictly liable for their use. This would eliminate any and all defenses such as trespass, assumption of risk, contributory negligence, etc.

So it really does not make much of a difference if you call it a pyrotechnic or flame effect before an audience, the bottom line is these things are dangerous and you should fully understand your obligations and liabilities before using.

That being said, I still would like a pair (just for my own personal enjoyment :D)

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On 1 on my many trips to China a few years ago I seen those flame shooters in China and I would never use what they had back then, just too dangerously made!

We do use USA made Flame Projectors in some of our shows. In fact we even have 1 mounted on an early 1950’s fire truck. :cool:

What better place to be used is on a Fire Truck, that is driving in Parades?

Note: We all have all licenses, Permits, Insurance, Spotters, fire protection equipment, fire People, and the blessing of the local AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction).

That is my day job and/or night job.:D

Final word: These are not toys and you do need all the above listed credentials and years of experience. Not to be used by the average home owner!

In fact these items are now illegal to be used even in China because of an accident a few weeks ago in a night club that had a lot of carnage.:(:(

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I didn't mean for this to start a debate but was just curious if LOR could control these. For clarification I did not get this from the site listed in a previous post. They were purchased from a American company they are just made and shipped from China. They are not AC powered just strictly DMX.

I don't know what the codes are for these but as Gerry stated and from the impression I got and was told these are not a pyrotechnic device but more of a special FX device. It is my understanding you had to be licensed to purchase any thing pyrotechnic related. With this I did not need it as I told it was not a pyrotechnic device. That is just what I was told from an expert and not from personal experience.

I do not plan to use these in a reckless manner and extreme caution and safety will be used with them. I plan on putting them on top of my Aluminum carport which is 10' in height and is 20' from the street with no obstruction around them or above them. They will only be used for a very small portion of the show with only maybe 10 blasts every 20 minutes. Gerry was correct when he said they are a simple on/off control as that is what is says in the manual as well. 2 channels which consists of armed and fire.


The fire dept is at the end of my street 3 blocks from me and I have several really good friends in that dept. I took them down there to show them and the captain told me he did not see any restriction in using them and they did not appear to fall under a pyrotechnic device. He did tell me this much that he wanted to come down to inspect the set up once I did place them before I used them to make sure they were not any potienal dangers surrounding them that could cause problems indirectly from using them. Other then that he requested that if I was going to be using a external tank with the units that each unit be equipped with a one way valve between each device and the tank if I was using a external tank and not the internal fuel tank as demoed to them. He also requested that I not use them if the wind is over a certain speed. That is not a problem seeing I have a on site weather station which is very high tech in regards as it is an offical reporting station for NWS office and the fallback station for my city. So being able to monitor the weather conditons will not be a problem since I even have a professional Lighting detector, host the GR Level 3 feed for my cities OEM as well as other skywarn services and devices on site as well. Other then that he saw no problem in them as they were nothing more then a high tech propane BBQ grill. This is coming from a department that has a ISO Class 1 Rating which is a very high national honor to have and only a handfull of departments in the nation have this rating. So I value there opinion on this with those regards.

I wish Charles would see this post since I would like to hear is feedback on it since he uses flame projectors in public displays where the crowd is surrounding the focal point and the devices are within 30' of the crowd and you can feel the heat when they come off them they are so close and these are no where in the ball park or size scale of what he uses.

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Well being one of the few to have designed and made these to be controlled by LOR, I guess I am the expert... No DMX is required. Each one costs about $60 to make..



Some here have really over reracted to the use of flame projectors... The addition of flames to my display has had a very positive response from my fans... I do think mine are any more dangerious than a standard Tiki torch...
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Melwelch,

Before you call yourself an expert, you should check out your local fire code, building code, police department, special FX code, theater code, local license board, and your home owner insurance policy.

We never said you could not do this with LOR!

We just said it not Legal and Safe to do so as LOR does not have all of the “REQUIRED” safety devices & systems integrated that are needed in its system as it doesn’t need it to just light lights!

We are just trying to protect the uneducated and your well being/home/friends/viewers.

We are just trying to share our knowledge with you.

It is a great effect as we do it all the time with the correct control systems, correctly made devices, in legally produced licensed shows, with the correct insurance policy, and controlled venues.

Good luck!!!!!

PS: Your far right hand flame is lagging and or misfiring! Either it is on the end of your gas supply line and your gas pressure is lower, or the updraft air currents in the corner are affecting it performance?

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I am just curious, besides the fact it is fire. What makes these flame projectors "unsafe" to use? Not dangerous, but unsafe to use? The units I have are not has big as the may look. It only shoots a flame about 3-4'. If they are placed where people can not walk up on them or near them I would think they should be ok. I don't think they are anymore unsafe then a BBQ grill and even my local Fire Station said that as well. I see these units used all the time in Haunted Houses and what not and they are in very close proxemity of guests.

melwelch, those are really nice. There is a discussion on one of the Halloween forums with your display and people are trying to figure out how you did it. I played around with an idea similar to yours many years ago. I just never got around to trying to improve it.

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Well, since you asked:

What makes these more dangerous than a BBQ grill? Two things (at least): One, my BBQ doesn't shoot flames out 3-4' in the air, unless I'm doing a REALLY bad job of cooking. Secondly, I don't grill unattended -- at worst I'm 20 feet away in the house, with a clear patio-door view of the grill.

What makes these more dangerous than a tiki torch? My tiki torches, and any that I've seen, don't shoot flames 3-4' in the air, they don't "shoot" flames at all, and their flame height is only a few inches tall. And again, I don't run these when I'm far away, or even not at home.

What makes this dangerous other than the fire? Well, uhm, what makes a sniper dangerous other than his gun? What makes a cliff dangerous to climb other than the fact it's so high up?

Are these cool? Certainly. Do I find them Christmassy? Not at all, but that's just my personal opinion, I guess... Would I use them in my display? Absolutely not. Why? Because I need to run the show completely unattended. I can't be certain that someone (or the wind) doesn't knock one of these down when it's not running, and then have it kick in and burn something down. I can't be sure that some drunk teen doesn't grab one and try to use it as a flamethrower. I can't assume that a big plastic bag doesn't float by, get torched, then float over on my shrub, starting my house on fire. In short, regs or no regs, I'd never use one of these unless myself or someone else was physically sitting there any time they were live and ready to go off...

Just my opinions...
-Tim

P.S. melwelch, I've seen your video, and it's really cool. But you appear to have NO physical barrier between your audience and these devices? You have bigger nads than I do ;)

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Are these devices safe in your hands? Perhaps. Another hazard to consider is Joe sixpack seeing it and thinking he can do the same thing. Next thing you know, he yells "Hey Y'all, Watch This!" and you know what happens after that.

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iresq wrote:

Are these devices safe in your hands? Perhaps. Another hazard to consider is Joe sixpack seeing it and thinking he can do the same thing. Next thing you know, he yells "Hey Y'all, Watch This!" and you know what happens after that.





Now that is funny right there I don't care who you are!!!
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I am not using the tiki torches. The ones I am using are on the first page. They are designed for this purpose. They will be encased in a box that will look a present. The top of the projectors have a 2" lip around the nozzle and that lip will stick out of the top of box, so the units won't fall over. They will be placed on top of the front of my metal carport at the front that is 10' in height and at least 20' from the street. There are no obstructions around of above them at all and nobody will be able to get close to them at all except for maybe in under them if there were standing in the driveway, but that will not be possible. I will also only be using these on the weekends while I am present and outside. They will not be used in high winds as I noted on the first page as requested by the fire dept.

These were mostly bought for my Halloween display for next year but I have a small place for them in my Christmas display. Fire is fire no matter if it is just a BBQ or a flame projector. The excellerant is the same so I am not sure what makes these any more unsafe then a BBQ in that sense, the danger is the same. You are just shooting flames into the air, what is really unsafe about that from a device that is made to do that if they are properly placed and procautions are taken? What makes a sniper dangerous other than his gun? Nothing. What makes a cliff dangerous to climb other than the fact it's so high up? Nothing. What makes a BBQ gril dangerous other then fire? Nothing. What makes these flame projectors dangerous other then fire? Nothing. Not sure what the point was you were trying to make, but I guess I missed it.

I can not be held accountable for others peoples actions. If Joe sixpack sees this and wants to try it so be it. He could see this at a theme park, or haunted house, on TV and decide it wants to do the same thing. Seeing this in my display should not be held against me for his actions though. Same could be said about someone with no knowledge of electrcity and seeing a display with 50,000 lights dancing to the music and trying it and overloading a circut and burining is house down, or not using GFI and someon stepping in the yard. What makes lights dangerous other then electrcity? Nothing. Does that mean you are going to stop doing your display because of those dangers? No, I don't think you will.

I didn't mean for this to start into a debate and I appreicate the concern. I have and will be taking the apporiate percautions and have had these apporved to use by my FD. So whether or not these are safe to use is not open for debate because I am using them anways. All I was asking was if LOR could control these? Through testing these have not misfired yet when flashing the DMX circuit.

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Texan, it sounds like you've covered all your bases, and for that I applaud you. I'm not trying to attack you-- you asked "why is this more dangerous than a BBQ grill"... I mentioned why I thought that (grills don't shoot flames high in the air, nor should they be operated unattended. If you feel these are as safe as a BBQ, then we disagree. If you, rather, are saying that both BBQ grills and these fire-shooters require proper precautions, which if followed, renders them safe, then we do agree after all.

I was speaking from my perspective. I wouldn't have a place to run these that wasn't too close to the house, or a tree, or something flamable, plus I wouldn't want to sit outside and supervise these every night. If you can accommodate that, and can get the proper regulatory approval, etc. then more power to ya -- I'd love to see the video!

-Tim

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