Pixcon 16 help

[James Stahl]

I have S5 and I have had problems with my mega tree.  I had a bad sandevice and changed over to a pixcon 16.  I need to know how to  program the channels, what network I need to be on in the program.  Most of my sequences have the RGB channels, I just need to know how to set them up.  I will be running two networks, one LOR reg speed and a 500k network.  Is there a youtube or file on this subject? 

 

Thank you

 

Jim 

[k6ccc]

If it were up to me, since you previously were using E1.31 for the SanDevices controller, I would run the PixCon 16 in E1.31 mode rather than LOR mode.  That way, you would have essentially no changes from your prior configuration other than a different card.  Would be much easier to just configure the Pixcon 16 so that it is identical to what the SanDevices card was and you're good to go.

 

[dgrant]

I respectfully suggest you carefully read the manual that came with the Pixcon16. Its a quite powerful card. Each of the different cards by the different manufacturers have different capabilities and limitations. For example, the Pixcon16, you must use all the same model of RGB strips/nodes like all LPD6803 or all WS2811. You cannot mix and match. San Devices allows mixing but only in groups of 4. Joshua Systems can do anything but limited to 12 outputs instead of 16. I don't remember the limitations for the AlphaPix this moment but someone here will.

[LOR Staff]

The LOR-PixCon16 is a very advanced smart pixel controller, meaning there are many ways to configure it correctly... and incorrectly. Let's start with the basics.

Bare Minimum PixCon16 Setup Checklist

Be sure to follow each of these steps IN ORDER. Do not proceed to the following step until you are sure the current step is complete. Please note that you may be further along in your testing than where this check lists starts. Please do not skip any of the previous steps even if you think you have performed them correctly already. Start at #1.


If you have already tried to configure the board, you should first FACTORY RESET the PixCon16. Instructions are provided in the manual. This checklist assumes that you have a 'stock' PixCon16 to start with.


Critical checkpoints points are in bold, but you may experience a problem at any step. If you are having problems at a checkpoint, check ALL steps up to this one to ensure they are completed properly.


The PixCon16 is a professional level board, and does require some in-depth knowledge about how E1.31 works, DMX and networking concepts. You may need to consult other sources if you run into issues or do not understand a concept. 


If you do have an issue and if you think everything is good to that point, and you would like to contact us for help STOP. Do not go further and do NOT change any configuration. If you would like to experiment and try to resolve the issue, please do! We encourage you to find the solution on your own. However if in the end you must contact us, reset the board and start again at step 1 and then stop at the failing step and contact us. We rely on the board being in a known state at every step of this checklist to help you.


Please ensure that you have AT LEAST S4 V4.3.14 Or Higher to configure the board. Some older versions may not be able to properly detect the Pixcon16.
 

1. Pixels have a front and a back (IN and OUT). Ensure you know which side data goes IN to. Pixels from LOR are plainly marked, or are correctly pre-wired. if your pixels have an arrow, that arrow points AWAY from the board.
2. Pixels have a voltage. Ensure you have the proper power supply. LOR Pixels are typically 5v or 12v. If your pixel package from LOR included a power supply, you do not need to worry about this step.
3. Pixels have current draw (amperage). Ensure you are not exceeding the amps per channel/power supply/etc. Pixels from LOR will draw 3A per 50 pixels at 5V (15 Watts), 3A per 100 pixels at 12V (36 Watts). If you pixel package from LOR included a power supply, you do not need to worry about this step.
4. Wire power supply to PixCon16, if not already wired.
5. Remember – never connect or disconnect anything from PixCon16 with power applied.
6. Power up board. Follow instructions in "An Introduction to DMX and E1.31 for Pixel Control" document if needed (linked below). Open Network Preferences/Find Configure PixCon16/Click on PixCon16 in list, and open the PixCon16 configuration window. 
   
   Only work with a SINGLE PixCon16 connected to your network at one time until properly configured -- IP address conflicts can occur if you attempt to configure 2 or more. 
   
   Do not continue until you are able to reliably talk to the board and configure it.
   If you are having difficulty reliably talking to the board, read:
   http://www1.lightorama.com/PDF/IntroductionToDMXandE131.pdf
   Pay particular attention to page 8.
    
7. Firmware will NEVER fix connection problems you are having at step 6! Connection problems are ALWAYS CONFIGURATION ISSUES between your computer and the PixCon16! 
   
   Never attempt to update firmware on a board that you can NOT reliably talk to and configure.  Attempting to update firmware on a PixCon16/Computer combination that is NOT configured properly WILL BRICK THE BOARD.
   
   There are TWO different versions of the PixCon16, and each requires different firmware.  Please carefully look at your board.  If next to the name you see "MkII" or a small round white sticker that says "ECO", you have a MARK II board.  If you do not see MkII or ECO, then you have an ORIGINAL board.  Both boards work identically, but require different firmware versions.  On Tab 3 (Misc) you will find the current firmware version of your board.
   
   For ORIGINAL boards:
   Ensure board firmware is AT LEAST 1.4.8 (or higher)
   
   For MARK II boards:
   Ensure board firmware is AT LEAST 2.0.13 (or higher)
   
   WARNING! Do NOT downgrade if you have a higher firmware version! 
   WARNING! When applying new firmware ensure you have the CORRECT firmware.  DO NOT USE MKII firmware on an original board (or vice versa).
   
   Incorrectly updating firmware will brick the board requiring special software to recover! 
   
   Do not continue until firmware is at least this version or higher.  If you need to update the firmware, please reply to this ticket with the version of your PixCon (Original or MKII) and we will send you the correct firmware.  You will need to confirm that you are ALWAYS successful at step 6!
8. Properly set up Pixel Type and Pixel Speed in configuration. Ignore all other parameters. LOR Pixels are WS2811. Most are high-speed.
9. Properly wire 1 pixel string to a 4 wire connector. Follow pin-outs in the manual. Note -- Some pixels do not have/require the clock signal.
10. Connect pixels to a single port, and power up. Pixels may briefly flash. Pixels that stay ON indicate incorrect pixel type or speed selected in #8. For LOR Pixels, ensure that you selected 'High Speed'. If High Speed does not work (it should in almost all cases), select slow speed.
11. Run hardware test on the pixels as documented in manual by using the buttons on the PixCon16. If pixels do not work, problem is most likely #8. Go back there. 
    Do not continue until the Hardware Test works properly.
12. Wire the rest of your pixels to the 4 wire connectors. Connect them to the PixCon16. Run the hardware test (step 11) again. Ensure all pixels are working correctly. Pixels that are not working indicate a problem with the pixel itself, or an under-rated power supply.
    Do not continue until the Hardware Test works properly for ALL pixels.
13. Again bring the PixCon16 configuration up. On the first tab of PixCon16 configuration, ensure you have the correct option specified for J3/J4. If you will use the board in ELOR mode, turn this option ON. For E1.31 ensure this option is OFF. If you have not done so yet, install the drivers for the USB adapter and ensure the USB adapter is working properly.
14. On the Second tab set up each port of the PixCon16 properly. You can use simple mode or advanced mode. All options are documented in the help file for the software or in the manual for the PixCon16. Remember, for E1.31 universes must also be set up in Network Preferences (the software will offer to do it for you), for ELOR, 500K speed and Enhanced Light-O-Rama network (done in step 16). It is best to write down the settings.
15. Ensure you have the LOR Control Panel loaded (which will load the LOR COMM Listener). The COMM Listener is ALWAYS required to control pixels.
16. Properly configure your network preferences:
    
    E1.31: Ensure Universe matches universe on the board & Set IP address correctly (multicast or unicast/specify). It is easiest to use multicast.
    
    ELOR: Ensure the COM port is set to at least 500K and ELOR mode is turned ON.
17. Properly connect networking:
    
    E1.31: Do not make any changes.   Both LEDs should be SOLID ON. 
    Do not continue until they are. NOTE: Your computer may need to be rebooted. If you reboot go back to step 15.
    
    ELOR: Disconnect Network cable, ensure jumpers on PixCon16 for J3/J4 are set to LOR. Connect HS USB adapter to computer, CAT5 from USB adapter to J4 of PixCon16. NOTE: You must have previously installed the drivers for the high speed USB adapter. Use another non-PixCon16 unit to test if you are unsure the USB adapter is working properly. Both LEDs should be SOLID ON. 
    
    Do not continue until they are. NOTE: Your computer may need to be rebooted. If you reboot go back to step 15.
18. Start Hardware Utility. If asked if the HWU should take control of a port say NO. Open the pixel console. Set Pixel Console params correctly and test pixels with sliders.
    Do not continue until you can successfully control pixels.
19. Your board is now ready to use.

[DocBrown86]

On 7/24/2019 at 11:39 AM, DevMike said:

The LOR-PixCon16 is a very advanced smart pixel controller, meaning there are many ways to configure it correctly... and incorrectly. Let's start with the basics.

Bare Minimum PixCon16 Setup Checklist

Be sure to follow each of these steps IN ORDER. Do not proceed to the following step until you are sure the current step is complete. Please note that you may be further along in your testing than where this check lists starts. Please do not skip any of the previous steps even if you think you have performed them correctly already. Start at #1.


If you have already tried to configure the board, you should first FACTORY RESET the PixCon16. Instructions are provided in the manual. This checklist assumes that you have a 'stock' PixCon16 to start with.


Critical checkpoints points are in bold, but you may experience a problem at any step. If you are having problems at a checkpoint, check ALL steps up to this one to ensure they are completed properly.


The PixCon16 is a professional level board, and does require some in-depth knowledge about how E1.31 works, DMX and networking concepts. You may need to consult other sources if you run into issues or do not understand a concept. 


If you do have an issue and if you think everything is good to that point, and you would like to contact us for help STOP. Do not go further and do NOT change any configuration. If you would like to experiment and try to resolve the issue, please do! We encourage you to find the solution on your own. However if in the end you must contact us, reset the board and start again at step 1 and then stop at the failing step and contact us. We rely on the board being in a known state at every step of this checklist to help you.


Please ensure that you have AT LEAST S4 V4.3.14 Or Higher to configure the board. Some older versions may not be able to properly detect the Pixcon16.
 

1. Pixels have a front and a back (IN and OUT). Ensure you know which side data goes IN to. Pixels from LOR are plainly marked, or are correctly pre-wired. if your pixels have an arrow, that arrow points AWAY from the board.
2. Pixels have a voltage. Ensure you have the proper power supply. LOR Pixels are typically 5v or 12v. If your pixel package from LOR included a power supply, you do not need to worry about this step.
3. Pixels have current draw (amperage). Ensure you are not exceeding the amps per channel/power supply/etc. Pixels from LOR will draw 3A per 50 pixels at 5V (15 Watts), 3A per 100 pixels at 12V (36 Watts). If you pixel package from LOR included a power supply, you do not need to worry about this step.
4. Wire power supply to PixCon16, if not already wired.
5. Remember – never connect or disconnect anything from PixCon16 with power applied.
6. Power up board. Follow instructions in "An Introduction to DMX and E1.31 for Pixel Control" document if needed (linked below). Open Network Preferences/Find Configure PixCon16/Click on PixCon16 in list, and open the PixCon16 configuration window. 
   
   Only work with a SINGLE PixCon16 connected to your network at one time until properly configured -- IP address conflicts can occur if you attempt to configure 2 or more. 
   
   Do not continue until you are able to reliably talk to the board and configure it.
   If you are having difficulty reliably talking to the board, read:
   http://www1.lightorama.com/PDF/IntroductionToDMXandE131.pdf
   Pay particular attention to page 8.
    
7. Firmware will NEVER fix connection problems you are having at step 6! Connection problems are ALWAYS CONFIGURATION ISSUES between your computer and the PixCon16! 
   
   Never attempt to update firmware on a board that you can NOT reliably talk to and configure.  Attempting to update firmware on a PixCon16/Computer combination that is NOT configured properly WILL BRICK THE BOARD.
   
   There are TWO different versions of the PixCon16, and each requires different firmware.  Please carefully look at your board.  If next to the name you see "MkII" or a small round white sticker that says "ECO", you have a MARK II board.  If you do not see MkII or ECO, then you have an ORIGINAL board.  Both boards work identically, but require different firmware versions.  On Tab 3 (Misc) you will find the current firmware version of your board.
   
   For ORIGINAL boards:
   Ensure board firmware is AT LEAST 1.4.8 (or higher)
   
   For MARK II boards:
   Ensure board firmware is AT LEAST 2.0.13 (or higher)
   
   WARNING! Do NOT downgrade if you have a higher firmware version! 
   WARNING! When applying new firmware ensure you have the CORRECT firmware.  DO NOT USE MKII firmware on an original board (or vice versa).
   
   Incorrectly updating firmware will brick the board requiring special software to recover! 
   
   Do not continue until firmware is at least this version or higher.  If you need to update the firmware, please reply to this ticket with the version of your PixCon (Original or MKII) and we will send you the correct firmware.  You will need to confirm that you are ALWAYS successful at step 6!
8. Properly set up Pixel Type and Pixel Speed in configuration. Ignore all other parameters. LOR Pixels are WS2811. Most are high-speed.
9. Properly wire 1 pixel string to a 4 wire connector. Follow pin-outs in the manual. Note -- Some pixels do not have/require the clock signal.
10. Connect pixels to a single port, and power up. Pixels may briefly flash. Pixels that stay ON indicate incorrect pixel type or speed selected in #8. For LOR Pixels, ensure that you selected 'High Speed'. If High Speed does not work (it should in almost all cases), select slow speed.
11. Run hardware test on the pixels as documented in manual by using the buttons on the PixCon16. If pixels do not work, problem is most likely #8. Go back there. 
    Do not continue until the Hardware Test works properly.
12. Wire the rest of your pixels to the 4 wire connectors. Connect them to the PixCon16. Run the hardware test (step 11) again. Ensure all pixels are working correctly. Pixels that are not working indicate a problem with the pixel itself, or an under-rated power supply.
    Do not continue until the Hardware Test works properly for ALL pixels.
13. Again bring the PixCon16 configuration up. On the first tab of PixCon16 configuration, ensure you have the correct option specified for J3/J4. If you will use the board in ELOR mode, turn this option ON. For E1.31 ensure this option is OFF. If you have not done so yet, install the drivers for the USB adapter and ensure the USB adapter is working properly.
14. On the Second tab set up each port of the PixCon16 properly. You can use simple mode or advanced mode. All options are documented in the help file for the software or in the manual for the PixCon16. Remember, for E1.31 universes must also be set up in Network Preferences (the software will offer to do it for you), for ELOR, 500K speed and Enhanced Light-O-Rama network (done in step 16). It is best to write down the settings.
15. Ensure you have the LOR Control Panel loaded (which will load the LOR COMM Listener). The COMM Listener is ALWAYS required to control pixels.
16. Properly configure your network preferences:
    
    E1.31: Ensure Universe matches universe on the board & Set IP address correctly (multicast or unicast/specify). It is easiest to use multicast.
    
    ELOR: Ensure the COM port is set to at least 500K and ELOR mode is turned ON.
17. Properly connect networking:
    
    E1.31: Do not make any changes.   Both LEDs should be SOLID ON. 
    Do not continue until they are. NOTE: Your computer may need to be rebooted. If you reboot go back to step 15.
    
    ELOR: Disconnect Network cable, ensure jumpers on PixCon16 for J3/J4 are set to LOR. Connect HS USB adapter to computer, CAT5 from USB adapter to J4 of PixCon16. NOTE: You must have previously installed the drivers for the high speed USB adapter. Use another non-PixCon16 unit to test if you are unsure the USB adapter is working properly. Both LEDs should be SOLID ON. 
    
    Do not continue until they are. NOTE: Your computer may need to be rebooted. If you reboot go back to step 15.
18. Start Hardware Utility. If asked if the HWU should take control of a port say NO. Open the pixel console. Set Pixel Console params correctly and test pixels with sliders.
    Do not continue until you can successfully control pixels.
19. Your board is now ready to use.

This seems like a good place to ask this. 
I have 1 Pixcon16 controller. Might have 2 soon. I’ve always just used the J9 Ethernet port and no other port. (I’m running E1.31)

What are the other ports for? When would I actually use them? I read the manual, I know it says what they are and I understand that.

Should I just leave it in the Ethernet port until I have a second controller? Or is the Ethernet port for configuration, and then would I move it to a DMX port?

[k6ccc]

If you are using the Pixcon 16 on a LOR RS-485, you would use J3 of J4.  You can also output DMX on those two along with J5, J7, and J8 if you are driving the card via E1.31.

 

[DocBrown86]

1 minute ago, k6ccc said:

If you are using the Pixcon 16 on a LOR RS-485, you would use J3 of J4.  You can also output DMX on those two along with J5, J7, and J8 if you are driving the card via E1.31.

 

So the Ethernet port is the input, and the rest would be outputs? J3 and 4 do say DMX In/Out, I think that’s what is confusing me.

[k6ccc]

From the manual:

LOR in/out and DMX Outputs (E1.31 mode only)

In and out for LOR, Out only for DMX when in E1.31 mode.

 

[DocBrown86]

5 minutes ago, k6ccc said:

From the manual:

LOR in/out and DMX Outputs (E1.31 mode only)

In and out for LOR, Out only for DMX when in E1.31 mode.

 

Huh. Missed that out only part. Thank you. Amazing what missing one word can do to you haha. Appreciate it.

[LOR Staff]

Ok, so let me break this down as best as I can using  the PixCon as an example.  

There are 2 things you need to have a good grasp on - one is 'Protocol', the other is 'Transmission Medium'.

Let's talk first about transmission mediums.  In the LOR world, there are TWO that we are mainly interested in.

1. RS485
2. Ethernet

There are pros and cons to each of those, as well as differences in how the physically work - we won't get into those at the moment.  While both use the same type of cables, sockets, etc they are not physically the same.  You can NOT directly connect one to the other.  Connecting RS485 to Ethernet (or vice versa) will probably cause bad things to happen as they are VERY different electrically.   Notice there is no mention of PROTOCOL here.

Let's now talk about Protocol.  There are several of them in the LOR world:

1. LOR
2. ELOR
3. DMX

A protocol is nothing more than an agreed upon standard to encode and decode data.  Basically, protocols are rules:  Put this data in this position, use this data to determine what the next X pieces of data are, etc.  Notice that there is no mention of TRANSMISSION MEDIUM.  The protocol you want to speak is dependent on the systems you are connecting to.  

These two groups of things, transmission and protocol,  are independent of one another and so they can be combined - 1 from A, 1 from B. 

The thing to remember here is that RS485 was FIRST (historically speaking).  That means a lot of times when we talk about things, if it is being sent of RS485 we 'forget' to mention that part.  It's implied.

When we combine 1 from transmission medium, and 1 from protocol, we give that combination a new name.  That new name also comes with additional rules about how the data is sent (we call that 'encapsulation' or 'wrapping' or putting data into an envelope.  While there is nothing wrong with making any combination of 2, at this time only some combinations are actually supported.

So for example, when we talk about LOR and ELOR protocol, we are always talking about something sent over RS485.  Not because there would be anything wrong with sending LOR/ELOR over Ethernet - we simply don't do it because we have not written code to make it happen.  If we did, we would give it a name, probably something along the lines of LOR/ELOR ACN.

Which leaves us with DMX.  DMX can be transmitted over BOTH transmission mediums. 

When we send DMX over RS485, we call it (simply) 'DMX' - Remember, RS485 came first.  Back then DMX described BOTH the protocol and the transmission medium.  It probably would have been better to rename it something like DMX-SERIAL or E1.11 (which is the standard name for DMX over RS485). 

But several years later, the need for more channels and more speed meant that DMX was running out of bandwidth.  So the ESTA decided to divide DMX into two pieces.  The fist piece would be called 'DMX' and is identical to what has been out there for years and years.  The other is called E1.31 (More correctly called 'streaming ACN', but no one uses that).  

E1.31 is simply DMX protocol that is transmitted over Ethernet.  

Summary:

When talking about LOR or ELOR, we are always talking about a protocol that is transmitted over RS485.  When we are talking DMX, we could be talking about RS485 transmission, OR Ethernet transmission.  Most people will make the distinction by saying DMX or E1.31, but not always.  If you are unsure from context you should always ask.

 

Continuing...

Transmission Medium is something PHYSICAL.  By that we mean there are very different physical attributes of the signals on the wires.  This could mean differences in voltage, amperage, etc, so transmission media are kept to SEPARATE physical connections.  On a PixCon16, you will see several RJ45 ports - those keystone looking sockets.  One of these is metal, the others are plastic.  There are reasons why the one is metal, but they are technical and don't need to be discussed.

The metal jack on a PixCon16 is for Ethernet (only).  The 5 plastic jacks are for RS485 (only).

So in order to run E1.31 (which is DMX over ETHERNET), you need to use the metal jack.  It is the only jack capable of Ethernet.  

If you are running LOR or ELOR protocol, you'll be using 2 of the 5 PLASTIC jacks - the two stacked one on top of the other.

 

You still didn't answer my question, Mike

OK, so now you are really shaking your head.  What I have just told you is that you are either going to use the metal jack (for e1.31) and NONE of the plastic ones, or only 2 of the 5 plastic jacks for LOR/ELOR.  WHAT?!  Why have all those jacks?

So we know that long ago there were these DMX devices that ran on RS485.  In fact, 95% of theatrical lighting devices STILL run on DMX over RS485.  Wouldn't it be nice if we had some kind of board that let you go from E1.31 (so you could take advantage of the higher speeds/etc it offered), and then convert that to DMX over RS485 to be able to use all these other devices?

THAT is what those other jacks are for.  You can configure a Pixcon that is running E1.31 to act as a 'BRIDGE' to go between E1.31 (DMX over Ethernet) and DMX (DMX over RS485).  

Since there is no such thing as LOR protocol over Ethernet, even though those jacks that can run RS485, you won't connect LOR devices to them (at least, not in LOR protocol mode.  Keep reading).

 

Oh Cool!  I can run 4 regular DMX devices from a PixCon16 then?  Nope.  You can run 4 UNIVERSES of devices! One more thing to learn about RS485. 

if you think about LOR controllers in general, like our 16 channel controllers, etc, you'll see that each one of them has TWO RJ45 jacks on them.  One is for IN (from a previous controller) and the other is OUT (to the next controller).  The PixCon is no different in this respect when it comes to using it - it has an IN and an OUT.  

Physical DMX can do the same things - you can 'daisy chain' multiple devices together to the same universe.  So each one of those 4 jacks is the START of a separate DMX Universe And since it is the START of a string, it only needs 1 jack per universe.  Only one of the 'double stacked' plastic jacks is going to be used.

 

So can I DRIVE the PixCon16 with DMX over RS485 data?

No.  And the reason for that is because DMX protocol itself does not allow for the number of channels required to drive pixels.  There are only enough channels in the DMX protocol to handle 170 pixels.  The PixCon16 can drive over 5,000.  What about the other 4800+ pixels?

 

So then I can only drive 170 pixels on the PixCon using ELOR?

Nope again.  Remember the limitation we talked about is on the Protocol, not the transmission medium.  ELOR protocol allows for many thousands of pixels since it is designed to handle them.

Want to learn a little more about DMX, E1.31?  Read the "An Introduction to DMX and E1.31 for Pixel Control" document we created several years ago.

 

What's the catch?  If I can drive as many pixels on ELOR as I can with E1.31, why would I go through the expense of adding network switches, routers, etc?

Actually that is not what we said.  I said we could drive many thousands of pixels on ELOR (RS485), but I never said you could drive as many pixels as on E1.31 (DMX over Ethernet).  The reason you go with E1.31 is that it has a HUGE advantage when it comes to Bandwidth over RS485.  You can transmit the data for 100,000 pixels over Ethernet and not break a sweat.  Ethernet is MUCH MUCH faster.

 

If E1.31 is so much better, why support RS485 at all for Pixels, IE, PixCon16 in ELOR mode, or PixieXX controllers?

Because E1.31 can get complicated in a hurry, and not everyone needs more than a few thousand pixels.

 

Is there ANY way to drive LOR controllers over E1.31?

Yes.  Almost all of our controllers understand BOTH LOR and DMX protocols! 

So let's say you have a PixCon16 and 3 LOR 16 channel controllers.  You are already running the PixCon16 with E1.31.  Address your LOR controllers NOT as LOR controllers but as DMX devices (see the manual for your controller).  Your PixCon16 takes the E1.31 commands, BRIDGES them to RS485.

 

Taking it full circle....

So why doesn't everyone buy PixCon16s?  Why sell Pixies at all?  The PixCon16 is a VERY powerful board.  On a single network with a single cable per device you can run hundreds of thousands of channels of all types:  pixels, AC, Servo, DC.  You could have strings of hundreds of AC controllers, a pixel tree that required 4 PixCon16s itself.  When it comes to flexibility and functionality the PixCon is second to none.  But all that flexibility comes at a VERY steep cost - learning how to use it.  The PixCon has so many features, and different ways that those features can be used, that is quite easy to get it into a state where it does NOT do what you want.