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Tracks whats the big deal?


Michael Bryant

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Michael Bryant wrote:

Hi Michael Farney thanks for your reply, and sorry for posting and showing up so late.
My misstake was forgetting it's Valetines day, which my wife refreshed my memory.
I'm still not sure Tracks is, or is not for me. I have no musical background so I'm
tickled pink with only one beat track which I copy and paste through out the sequence
to guide me to the beat mark locations. And if there is an extra trumpet notes other than
the beats, I just do my best to put them in the right spot. For the time savings with the
Beat Wizard and VU Wizard I haven't had much luck with either. I find both to miss some
beats, and some beats to be slightly off the mark. For the 3/4 or 4/4 timing, I have not
found a song yet that was constant to that beat through out the entire song. Bottom line,
I have to go back anyway and make adjustments to all the automatic beat features, which
is why I'm not that much better off than I was with only the tap wizard. Don't get me wrong,
I'm not stubborn to change. I love a lot of the changes to S2, and I'm sure there are some
good ones I haven't found yet, maybe these Tracks are one of them. If only I could find
an application that they would benefit me. From what I see here over a hundred people
viewed this post but only a few of you had info to share. This tells me I'm not the only one
who doesn't get theTracks concept.
Thanks Guys for your help. Michael


It took me a little bit of time to learn how to use the beat wizard effectively because a lot of songs do have tempo changes. The beat wizard performs flawlessly when you select a time range where the tempo doesn't change. So if your song has a slow part, then fast part, then slow, you'd just enter the time ranges separately and apply the beat separately. Here are a few tips I have learned over time to get the beat wizard to be more coorperative:


  • Never include any section with that is actively changing tempo. If you have a song where there is a small slow down for 2 beats, but the rest of the song is at tempo, it will mess up. Enter the time up to the 2 slow beats and apply that timing, then enter the time after the 2 beats to the end. Any part of a song that slows down or speeds up even for just a moment confuses the heck out the beat wizard. (It will mess up timing marks all over the place, not just at the 2 beats with the change.)
  • Always start your time at a strong beat. Since a lot of songs do have a tempo change or an introduction that isn't standard, we have to run the beat wizard several times. Let's say the next range of steady tempo is 1:32 until 2:25. Start by plugging in these two values to the tempo wizard. Now, when you play it, you notice that 1:32 is actually in the middle of the beat, and the real beats are at 1:30:99 and 1:33:42. The beat wizard likes to assume that you are starting on a beat, so starting at 1:32 (right in the middle of the beat) tends to confuse it. It will get back on track eventually, but the first couple or not first many beat marks it inserts will be wrong. So, set the start time to 1:30:99 or 1:32:42, but NOT 1:32. Always start as close to an actual beat as you can.
  • Some music that doesn't have strong drum beats the beat wizard just can't do well. If you play around with the start and end time (even though you aren't using the real start/end time, but picking more random values), I find I can usually fool the wizard into picking the correct beats.

Once you learn its quirks, it's a really effective tool that saves you time. However, sometimes you do have to fall back to the tapper.

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As someone new to programing I am having a problem just staring out sequencing the first song. Just using 16 channels and figuring out what each channel will do is mind boggling too.

I have looked at doing my first sone, which has a moderate beat, and still have not found the method that works for me.

Now reading the comments above you give me some other options to try in S2.

I think the tracks with groups might be what will work for me. The 1/16 beat timing also is interesting.

Just have to figure out how many more channels I need and what each one will do.

Keep up the good input.

Dennis

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michael.farney wrote:

Michael Bryant wrote:
Hi Michael Farney thanks for your reply, and sorry for posting and showing up so late.
My misstake was forgetting it's Valetines day, which my wife refreshed my memory.
I'm still not sure Tracks is, or is not for me. I have no musical background so I'm
tickled pink with only one beat track which I copy and paste through out the sequence
to guide me to the beat mark locations. And if there is an extra trumpet notes other than
the beats, I just do my best to put them in the right spot. For the time savings with the
Beat Wizard and VU Wizard I haven't had much luck with either. I find both to miss some
beats, and some beats to be slightly off the mark. For the 3/4 or 4/4 timing, I have not
found a song yet that was constant to that beat through out the entire song. Bottom line,
I have to go back anyway and make adjustments to all the automatic beat features, which
is why I'm not that much better off than I was with only the tap wizard. Don't get me wrong,
I'm not stubborn to change. I love a lot of the changes to S2, and I'm sure there are some
good ones I haven't found yet, maybe these Tracks are one of them. If only I could find
an application that they would benefit me. From what I see here over a hundred people
viewed this post but only a few of you had info to share. This tells me I'm not the only one
who doesn't get theTracks concept.
Thanks Guys for your help. Michael


It took me a little bit of time to learn how to use the beat wizard effectively because a lot of songs do have tempo changes. The beat wizard performs flawlessly when you select a time range where the tempo doesn't change. So if your song has a slow part, then fast part, then slow, you'd just enter the time ranges separately and apply the beat separately. Here are a few tips I have learned over time to get the beat wizard to be more coorperative:


  • Never include any section with that is actively changing tempo. If you have a song where there is a small slow down for 2 beats, but the rest of the song is at tempo, it will mess up. Enter the time up to the 2 slow beats and apply that timing, then enter the time after the 2 beats to the end. Any part of a song that slows down or speeds up even for just a moment confuses the heck out the beat wizard. (It will mess up timing marks all over the place, not just at the 2 beats with the change.)
  • Always start your time at a strong beat. Since a lot of songs do have a tempo change or an introduction that isn't standard, we have to run the beat wizard several times. Let's say the next range of steady tempo is 1:32 until 2:25. Start by plugging in these two values to the tempo wizard. Now, when you play it, you notice that 1:32 is actually in the middle of the beat, and the real beats are at 1:30:99 and 1:33:42. The beat wizard likes to assume that you are starting on a beat, so starting at 1:32 (right in the middle of the beat) tends to confuse it. It will get back on track eventually, but the first couple or not first many beat marks it inserts will be wrong. So, set the start time to 1:30:99 or 1:32:42, but NOT 1:32. Always start as close to an actual beat as you can.
  • Some music that doesn't have strong drum beats the beat wizard just can't do well. If you play around with the start and end time (even though you aren't using the real start/end time, but picking more random values), I find I can usually fool the wizard into picking the correct beats.

Once you learn its quirks, it's a really effective tool that saves you time. However, sometimes you do have to fall back to the tapper.



Hi Michael,
I see my problem was assuming the Beat Wizard was perfect and
didn't have any quirks. Thanks for the hint about Time Range option,
(using Just part of the song) at a time. I love a fast song shows but my
reaction time makes using the Tap Wizard very difficult, I can't even
type fast. I guess my best bet is to do a few seconds at a time with the
Beat Wizard on difficult songs. I think you have swayed me away from
the dreaded Tap Wizard. Not sure I understand your work around for
weak drum beat songs, but there are enough songs with strong drum
beats, so I will just avoid the others. This is another subject thats just
crying out for a demo video, anyone listening. Your post has helped
me out of a big rut I was in.
Thanks Michael
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Dennis Cherry wrote:

..... The 1/16 beat timing also is interesting.....

In case you've missed some of my other threads where I talk about this,
to get the timings of a song, I start with NO GRID, and use the tapper wizard.
..even being a drummer, tapping 1/8 or 1/16 notes for the whole song gets a bit hard, so I go for 1/2 notes.
Once you tap ot the 1/2 notes, you basically have 1 event for every other beat (assuming a 4/4 timing) I then seperate each event by inserting 7 multiple events into the event.
The only thing to look out for is, that LOR adds the remainder to the last event.
If this creates a strange timing, you may have to do a little manual editing, or go back and tap 1/4 notes instead of half notes.(thus reducing the area for error)
If the song changes tempo, thats OK, because you should have changed your tap tempo at the same time, thus making things smooth.

in the end, I have a grid of 16th note timings. 2 16s is an 8 4 16s is a quarter (or full beat) and I never end up wirh any extra event timings that don't go to the music.
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Well try thinking of it this way.

You have 10 windows with lights around them. Now you will not run cords from each window to a central controller because you also have bushes around your house that you want to animate. Then let's say you have some trees around your yard and of course if you are me you have over 400 wireframes.:shock:

Now create a track named Windows, another track named bushes an another named Trees. You can now set timings for each based on how you want them to look. You can work with just that track straight through the song till you are finished. Yet each set of items may be connected to four or five different controllers.

You will save time sequencing, time in set up and money in cords. Believe me it is so much faster than LOR.

My hope is when the final product is released that you will be able to take a group of channels and move them all at once to a track. Try moving 70 mini trees one at a time!:shock:

Oh one more thing. When you get over 400 channels you will love the tracks!!

Another thing is that I found the beat wizzard to be right on with the timing. I do kick it up two or three times the beat then it allows me to do off beat stuff too.

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Robin wrote:

You have 10 windows with lights around them. Now you will not run cords from each window to a central controller because you also have bushes around your house that you want to animate. Then let's say you have some trees around your yard and of course if you are me you have over 400 wireframes.:shock:


You will save time sequencing, time in set up and money in cords. Believe me it is so much faster than LOR.



I have no problem understanding the use and benefits of tracks but I think your post might be a little misleading to those still struggling with the definition. You state that tracks will save you money in cords and set-up time. How do you come to this conclusion? If you want to control the lights aound the each of the 10 individual windows in your example, you will have to run a cord from each window to a controller - 10 extension cords, 10 channels. The use of tracks doesn't change this in any way.


Mark
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I can definately see why tracks are a good thing.

The main thing I'm realizing is that each track really has its own timings.

So even though you can still do this LOR I style, meaning in 1 track ... it seems cleaner to create your various timings as individual tracks ... and then group items into these tracks, based on what you want doing what during the song.

I'm especially curious about how you handle 200,300,400 channels ... but do people just import their configuration into the first track and then move them into various tracks from there (for each sequence) ?

I've been doing that, but it seems cumbersome. Am I doing it wrong, or just complaining about all the work that is unavoidable?

I would be nice to store my configuration in track groups, or track sensitive configurations ... and then assign the timings to those tracks as I see fit. I could see how you might want multiple configurations, just to the same items, don't always have to be on the same timings always.

So I could start a new musicial sequence by selecting a 5 track configuration ... and it would bring in my channels, already grouped into 5 tracks ... but no timings assigned yet.


I know this is a simplistic way to do things ... and as Bob said, you can copy channels to other tracks to use different timings (but to me, thats kind of nice, but on an 'as needed' basis only). To me, copying things around is cool, but could become confusing and a snarl in a hurry. I don't know how guys here deal with 400 channels ... I'm buried under only 64 channels!

unrelated note: I recall seeing that setup here where someone had two 22" monitors that pivot to a vertical orientation ... that looks like a sweet way to run LOR II ... lots of visible channels, but still never gonna get 400 on the screen ... maybe 64 or 80 ...

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Michael Bryant wrote:

Hi Michael,
I see my problem was assuming the Beat Wizard was perfect and
didn't have any quirks. Thanks for the hint about Time Range option,
(using Just part of the song) at a time. I love a fast song shows but my
reaction time makes using the Tap Wizard very difficult, I can't even
type fast. I guess my best bet is to do a few seconds at a time with the
Beat Wizard on difficult songs. I think you have swayed me away from
the dreaded Tap Wizard. Not sure I understand your work around for
weak drum beat songs, but there are enough songs with strong drum
beats, so I will just avoid the others. This is another subject thats just
crying out for a demo video, anyone listening. Your post has helped
me out of a big rut I was in.
Thanks Michael


I created a tutorial using the beat wizard in a new thread. ;)

http://lightorama.mywowbb.com/forum72/16195.html
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Well Guys after reading all these posts several times, my light bulb finally came on.
Now I believe I know what tracks are. The name tracks and reference to timing always
being associated to them, was throwing me off. A better name for tracks for me would
have been Folders, or Channel Folders. And these Folders can have copies of your
original sequence channel setup, with the same timing or not. Tracks are for organizing
or grouping your channels for easier access, with the additional option of being able to
assign a different timing than you had before. This post may light someone's bulb too.
If I'm still in the dark, and still have tracks all wrong, someone tell me before I mislead
others down the wrong road.
Thanks to all of you guys,
Michael

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Glad you see the light. Tracks as used here directly mimics tracks that are used in most audio and video editing software. think of stereo sound, two tracks. They play together to give you stereo. For surround sound, 6/7 tracks that all play at the same time. Tracks are a little different in that audio/video editors typcially only have one element in each track (video, text, audio track, etc). In LOR land, you start out with all your elements in one track but can break it down from there. Tracks are all interelated by mean of the timeline. Folders, on the other hand, are more geared toward organizing. You keep music in folders. You keep sequences in folders. You can have subfolders. But folders are not meant to 'work' with each other. There are no common elements of a folder to tie them together.

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Here's one good use I found for tracks. I have a song with a good beat, so I used the Beat Wizard on track one to set the timing events. The song has singing, and I wanted to flash my lighted buck for one voice and the doe on another. So I put them (the doe and buck) into a "Voices" channel and used the tapper to make them "sing". The voices go on 1/2, 1/4, and 1/8 beats, so I didn't want to snap them to the nearest beat, and I didn't want new timing events to be added to the "Beat" track. After I used the tapper wizard on the "Voices" track, I cleared all the timings on that track, and then went and cleaned it up.

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I think the flexibility (of tracks) is great. But its also a complicating factor after awhile ... as you can easily forget which channels were using which tracks after a while.

I also think moving between tracks = navigation hassles, as mentioned before. Being able to hold your current position (in the timeline) when moving between tracks would be very helpful. Being able to remember what channel range you were looking at ... and retaining then after switching tracks, also useful. I just think we have tracks implemented, but don't have the polish out yet ... this would be one of those 'polish' items.

It might be nice to be able to have some way to know which channels are using which tracks. Maybe the names on the left could be bolded if that channel was using within the track.

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