Using 40, 50, or 100 Amp Breakers/Circuits

[Guest guest]

One of the cool things about LOR is the intensity option. You could reduce the rate to say 75% without a noticable loss in light and save 25% across the whole board. I had to do this and it worked great...............Mike

[Guest guest]

"I hope the electrician get back with my soon with pricing on adding the new service."

You can compare your costs to mine.


I paid $750.00 to an electrical firm to install a 140 amp sub-panel in my garage closet next to my 200 amp main panel. They ran conduit over my garage door wall to the next wall, came down the wall with conduit and installed a service tray. Out of the service tray they did a stup up to (5) quad boxes. Each vertical plug in each quad box is a wired on it's own 20 amp breaker.

I live in Dallas.

Charles

[Guest guest]

Mike, that is a good idea. I knew you could reduce the intensity but I never thought about doing that to reduce the amount of amps I am pulling. Thanks

Matt

Mike Cole wrote:

One of the cool things about LOR is the intensity option. You could reduce the rate to say 75% without a noticable loss in light and save 25% across the whole board. I had to do this and it worked great...............Mike

[Guest guest]

IMHO

Back from some trips and see some calcuations going on, I love Calcualtions.

so you have 60000 lights at .33 per 100 is equal to 198 amps, correct ...

but you are doing it on a single phase this way,

typically you would put on two legs or even 3 if you have 3 phase power, so we get to take that and divide by 2 for 240 with 120 volt lines. Giving us 99 amps. That is would be the maximum we have to "wire" for. We wouldn't wire for 198 amps, anything more would be abundandance.

but as others have said they only really thing you need is be able to supply that kind of amperage on your cabling and wiring not a concurrent supply, the reality would be somewhat less because all lights would not be on at the same time,

unless of course you want to do brain surgery, or a Reef Tank Aqaurium which requires high heat and intense lighting, maybe glazing pottery, But I digress ...

likely you will only have 20 to 40 per cent of your lights on at any one time, so the actual usage is much less, even in your off show time which some lights will be lit that will be most of your load and typically that would be the size we need to supply as it will most likely be the most lights on at any one time. I have maybe 15000 lights on in the static display full brightness using the method above I have lots to spare with 2 - 15 amp circuits, I roast coffee (800 watts more) cause you have to do it outside for the smoke on the same circuit.

so back to the 99 amps at 20 per cent is not quite 20 amps. This would be 2 circuits

Or lets take your off show lighting, if it is 50 percent brightness of the 99 amps,

or maybe 50 percent of the lights at 50 per cent brightness.

You can weld metal with 30 amps dual phase.

I did leave my mini tree set up once and on while I got side tracked (don't do this) , and came back and the 4 cats were in a circle around it, I thought they were appreicative of my work, and were in the christmas spirit, heck no they were getting warm. Those are dangerous little things.

JMO

[Guest guest]

UNLESS, you have a really large static display and use LOR in other portions of the yard which is what I do and even with LOR running those two sections and using two and three channel controllers for smaller displays, my display still pulls right around 198-200 amps while up and running. This isn't my estimate but what the electric company tracked for six years during the month of December as the display draw. They told my electrician they could tell when the display was finally up and running because of the power draw.



Your power needs will totally depend on how you want to set up your display. Some like the blinky, blink all the time with everything going on and off, fading, shimmering, etc. Some like some LOR/AL use and a lot of static items. Nothing wrong with either choice but it does affect your power needs.



Marilyn

[Guest guest]

Marilyn,

Just out of curiosity, when your display was measured at 198Amps, where was that measurement taken? I only ask to get a point of reference.

I'm curious how they/you isolated your display to get that measurement or was that a peak total draw at your meter during the height of your display season? I know with Mid-South they use a device called a Turtle in the meter that can read your meter and usage (so much for the meter readers.. )

If they are calculating that from your meter usage that would include all of your household usage (fridge, heater, water heater etc etc ..). Of course if you have all this on a dedicated meter then my question is moot and I will go sit down over there ---------------------------------->

:laughing:

-- Bob

PS. Can't wait until March !!!

[Guest guest]

I agree.. and I will go sit in the corner as well

[Guest guest]

I just want to make a few comments on this post...

blearning wrote:

IMHO

Back from some trips and see some calculations going on, I love Calcualtions.
so you have 60000 lights at .33 per 100 is equal to 198 amps, correct ...
but you are doing it on a single phase this way,

typically you would put on two legs or even 3 if you have 3 phase power, so we get to take that and divide by 2 for 240 with 120 volt lines. Giving us 99 amps. That is would be the maximum we have to "wire" for. We wouldn't wire for 198 amps, anything more would be abundandance.

That is 99 amps at 240volts BUT it is still 198 amps at 120 volts...So if you want to have all 60,000 mini lights on at once at 100% intensity then you need 10 - 20 amp circuits running 120 volts.

but as others have said they only really thing you need is be able to supply that kind of amperage on your cabling and wiring not a concurrent supply, the reality would be somewhat less because all lights would not be on at the same time,
unless of course you want to do brain surgery, or a Reef Tank Aqaurium which requires high heat and intense lighting, maybe glazing pottery, But I digress ...

I like having the ability to turn on all of my lights at once. It also keeps me from keeping track of what things I can and cannot turn on at the same time.

likely you will only have 20 to 40 per cent of your lights on at any one time, so the actual usage is much less, even in your off show time which some lights will be lit that will be most of your load and typically that would be the size we need to supply as it will most likely be the most lights on at any one time. I have maybe 15000 lights on in the static display full brightness using the method above I have lots to spare with 2 - 15 amp circuits, I roast coffee (800 watts more) cause you have to do it outside for the smoke on the same circuit.

so back to the 99 amps at 20 per cent is not quite 20 amps. This would be 2 circuits

I think that loading to only 20% is very optimistic. Also be careful with the 99amp thing. It is actual 198 amps at 120volts and we generally base our circuits on 120volts.

I once had about 120,000 (some C9s but mostly mini lights) lights running in my display. It was all computerized with about 600 circuits controlling the show. In my show most of the lights are on at anyone time and it is very common for them all to flash on. I could handle the show with a regular 200 amp service in my house.

THE FOLLOWING IS NOT RECOMMENDED AND CAN LEAD TO DEATH!!! While the show was running I opened my main panel and put clamp amp meters on the main power lines coming into the box. One read 180 amps the other 175 amps (as I recall but I am getting forgetful). In the house only a few lights were on and the house is run with gas heat, hotwater....so most of this was the Christmas Lights. ( I have over 30 separate circuits for the Christmas Lights ).

I think that 2 - 20 amp circuits is not going to be nearly enough for 60,000 lights regardless of how the show is designed. If you went with all LEDs then you probably could get that many on 40 amps.

[Guest guest]

I have the type they can monitor without coming out to the house. They kept track because they knew the line from the transformer to the house needed to be replaced but they just never made it a priority until this year when the meter burned up. The 198 amp draw was above and beyond the normal draw. I also have gas for heating, hot water, cooking etc. and during the lighting season use very little other lights, etc. This again is from the electric companies records not mine and what they told my electrician. We also use an ammeter to balance the loads on circuits when we are setting up and running power so have a good handle on what it draws. Once the new meter and upgraded service was in my electrician did exactly what Dan did, open the box and take a reading. He also verified that it was pulling that much and this was just at sunset, with virtually nothing running inside. He did it to make sure the new outlets and new panel was balanced. He monitored the outside lights which are run on a separate box now as we moved the cords to the new outlets. It pulled right at 198 amps for the outside items even with LOR running.

No need for either of you to go sit in the corner. I was simply trying to point out that every display and the power needs are different. Nothing wrong with anyone's choices, it's all personal preference. My husband and I love the LOR but will never use it for the entire display because we also love the static portions.

As an example of how we use that much, there are 140,000 lights outside, plus 20,000 inside, right around 200 blow molds, 120 wire frames with about 20 of them using rope light, C7's along the roofline, a music staff that is 8 foot tall and 18 foot long with a 7 foot tall treble clef all done in rope light, a total of 12 six and a half to 8 foot lighted Christmas trees inside and out, three ice trees that use 6 amps each, about 145 animated figures, a very large village, etc, etc, etc.

Marilyn

[Guest guest]

Ok .. I can see the draw numbers.

If I understand it correctly, when Dan measured his show at the incoming legs of his mains, He was seeing the draw across each of the 120V legs. On a 200 Amp service he was about 90% capacity on one leg and 87.5% on the other. (I'm speaking in thoretical #'s not actual. This reading would include everything from the Chime-O-Matic to the fan in the bathroom if measured at the mains)

Marilyns is pretty much the same thing although we don't know what her service capacity is. If she has a 200amp service then they are close to 100% on each leg. Dats a lotta juice folks !!!

Anyway .. I wasn't being argumentative or even a doubting Thomas .. I was just curious where the measurements were taken.

Currently our subpanel is fed from a "double 70". This gives us 70 amps per leg to our sub panel which supports only a total of 8 slimline breakers. I loaded it with 8 - 15 amp breakers so the max my sub panel would pull could be 60 Amps per leg. (4 breakers on each side). Each 15 amp breaker then feeds a 15amp GFI socket for plugging in the display. Its a personal preference for me to not have more breaker capacity in a sub-panel than what ever is directly above/before it in the circuit.

In a catastophic casdading electrical failure of my display, I want the fuses in the lights to go first, then the sub-panel breaker(s), then the breaker feeding the sub-panel from the mains, then finally the mains... which if it ever goes back that far I would suspect the result would be visable from the International Space Station.. :laughing:

Thanks for the feedback and the info. Its always educational !!

-- Bob

[Guest guest]

Bob,

My service prior to the electric meter fire was 100 amps at 240. I now have 200 amp service, one leg covers the inside of the house and the other leg runs another panel outside with dedicated outlets, each outlet being serviced by it's own 20 amp breaker.

I agree with you totally, that's a lot of juice!!!! We are going to make a large investment in LED's this year, will show you the samples at the mini. Jeff and I have a source with some really great pricing.

Marilyn

[Guest guest]

I think we all agree.... I don't think the suggestion was that a whole bunch of lights would be _on_ (excuse the pun) 2 circuits, I think the suggestion was how to do with less.

However you can put a gazillion lights on one circuit but I would bet my next paycheck on you not being able to power then up at full power all at once.

The calculations however are still correct, lowering the intensity and with some planning, and follow the reduction of the amount of light intensity suggestions that were made, you could get a satisfactory light display.

I would like to see everybody with small power substations sitting in the back yard, it would be good for the economy and have as much cable and as many lights of all different kinds, and inflatables, and rope and twinklers and Candy canes and arches and ….. to suit whatever their fancy.

I am impressed by the displays and the amount of time energy, power and materials that go into them. It never ceases to amaze me the look of amazement of kids of all ages gets when they see these displays.

and I do apologize if the thought was misconstrued that you could light 60000 lights at full power on 2 15 amp 120 volt circuits.

of course the disclaimer will now ride, your mileage may vary :laughing:

[Guest guest]

nanac1 wrote:

... I now have 200 amp service, one leg covers the inside of the house and the other leg runs another panel outside with dedicated outlets, each outlet being serviced by it's own 20 amp breaker.

Hmmm .. I am really anxious to see how they did that.. I think a tour of the elctrical service is in order for the Mini-Plus.. might shed some light (no pun intended)

So is 1/2 of each of your panel boxes empty or is there some type of single leg panel that I just havn't seen, or did they just bridge each panel to feed off of one leg? My curiosity is really high on the interest meter here.

Bob

[Guest guest]

Bob, I didn't watch, had to keep six kids out of his hair. Will gladly show the set up at the mini. No problem at all.

Let me clarify a couple of things. When I said leg, that's just my terminology, being an electrical misfit.

Here's the set up in a nutshell. We have three sub panels inside the house from the old service. These panels are supported from the main panel outside (the new addition). Inside this panel is the 200 at 240 main. Beneath it is the following, a 125 breaker which controls the inside of the house (the three panels that have always been there). Shut this one breaker off and the entire inside and all of the old outside outlets go dead. In addition, the new box pne 20 amp breaker for each of the new outside outlets. Shut these breakers off and the outside display goes off. This display season I used all of the new outlets plus two of the breakers in the sub panel that is connected to the AC breaker and a few of the old outside outlets under the windows for things close to the house, roofline, outline of windows, etc.

I probably haven't explained this well but you'll see it all at the mini. I had posted pics and explanation in the old forum on how we made a subpanel using the 70 amp AC breaker to power part of the display. We still have that separate panel.

Marilyn

[Guest guest]

Marilyn,

Actually, you explained it perfectly. In part it is exactly what I have here at my house.

Look forward to seeing it and meet you at the Mini!!!

-- Bob

[Guest guest]

Bob

check out the Texas mini in Killeen thread. Posted a list of requested topics. Feel free to add any and we'll see what we can do.



Marilyn