stewartmatte Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Hello all, I'm looking to sell roughly half of my incan mini lights so I can slowly try to convert over to led bc of power issues. I'm in Louisiana so shipping charges unknown until I know location being shipped. I have over 350 different strings of lights, white lights and green lights mainly, about 90 boxes of 100 ct multi color light minis. Alot brand new never plugged in (prolly 90% of em),others only used last year. Any questions just pm me. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Arch Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Stewart,Don't sell based on perceived power issues some of us speculated that you might have. I'm not an electrician & I don't ever sleep at H. I. If you're not 100% sold on all the advantages of LED lights, it might be worth paying for a service call to know for sure. I personally think it's the right move, but it's your show and your money. Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartmatte Posted May 12, 2015 Author Share Posted May 12, 2015 Thanks for the advice/tip. I don't wanna switch, but also don't want to spend alot on extra service,sub panel,wiring, etc. I seen a video of a guy running 140,000 incans, on same 200 amp 240 service i have, so why can't I run 45k to 50k incans on mine, with a smaller house? I need an electrical guru on here to explain in lamens terms in guess lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Arch Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Stewart,Short answer: If you like incandescent - keep your lights and do your show.(Here again - I'm not a guru nor qualified to do anything except BBQ out back - no license here either, but everyone who eats at my house gains weight....)Long answer (and you & others will probably say I'm full of it...): You stated 116 amps for your show. That would be pushing the upper end of what you should ever try on a 200 amp service. You are correct in thinking it's 200 amps on each buss, but as I said before, it gets kinda tricky. 200 amps x 240 volts = 48,000 watts. Most codes say 80% rules apply to all services, so you really should on use 38,400 total watts. However, the manufactures of the equipment state they're 100% loadable. So we will use the 100% loading for this exercise. 200 amps x 120 volts equal 24,000 watts - times both legs - still equals 48,000 watts. That's why the "little girl" at the power company told you "yes, 200 amps". Cause power all adds up the same. Let's say you are using 100 amps. That actually puts 100 amps positive on one leg and puts 100 amps negative on the other leg and the neutral stays at zero - which is good. Now this is AC - alternating current - so, it reverses 60 time a sec or something like that.. That's why you want it balanced out. If you put 200 amps on one leg, it would have 200 amps on the other leg also. So when you put 50 amps on the other leg, it will load up 50 amps on the neutral - and then alternate. That's how you actually can get more than 200 amps from your panel. Most neutral wires are reduced in size from the line wires (hot) too, so a full 200 amps on the neutral would not be advisable. Now I don't know how many neighbors are on your power companies transformer either. Power providers typically will load their transformers to 140%. Say each house uses 200 amps, 48KVA (200x240/1000) They might put 5 or so houses on one 100 KVA transformer. In a demand load situation, those houses could pull more than the 100KVA of loading. But that rarely happens. They know not everyone does laundry at the same time, or has the oven and the stove on at every house at 8:00 pm sharp. This diversity factor keeps the transformer sizing down, wire sizing down = their costs down. Protected by $5 fuses in the cutout - they rarely loose a transformer. (Most people don't even use a stove - they eat at McD's, but that's another post later...) Single-phase service should be loaded at 120-0-120, H-N-H, when everything is balanced out correctly. Neutral zero is the best. So back to just your house. Balance it out. For most of us, it doesn't really matter as we're not loading it up to the extremes. In your case, make sure you have as close to 1/2 the load on each leg/buss. Don't guess by 1/2 half the controllers. Use the calculations you've already done. Check 'em against the spreadsheet I posted on your other thread. Use a kill-a-watt meter http://www.homedepot.com/p/P3-International-Kill-A-Watt-EZ-Meter-P4460/202196388 . Then, do the laundry during the day or take it to the cleaners. Have your oven or stove off, never fire 'em both up during your light show and you will be just fine. Well, until you bump one and break it, or it burns out prematurely and can't find which one of those stupid lights it is. Can't connect very many together either. I have 35 strands of C9 LEDs and 35 strands of LED icicles on my house - plugged in at one spot and pulling only 2.81 amps... Not to mention your electric bill, year after year after year after year...Good luck and post pics and vids of your show. Sounds amazing.Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartmatte Posted May 12, 2015 Author Share Posted May 12, 2015 Thanks Daniel! I know that took a long time to type, and was exactly what I was looking for. Know for sure about the 2 different buss loads. Still lost about how exactly that neutral carries unbalanced power lol, but if it does and it works then I guess I'll study the how/why later. Again thanks! Definitely pick and vids will be uploaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Arch Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Stewart,Here's a little more info of why I would start replacing your lights with LEDs when you can.... I believe Beauregard Electric Cooperative, Inc. (BECi) serves the electric energy needs in your area. Their average electricity charge is just above $95/1000KWH - $0.095/kwh. So at a little above $0.095, I'll round it to $0.10 for this example. Minis use on ave .40 watts per lamp. .40 x 50,000 lamps (number of lamps you stated above) is 20,000 watts. That's 167 amps. You said you've calculated your show at 116 amps, so I'll use your number, since it's lower. 116a x 120v = 13,920 watts. Multiply by .001 to get kilowatts per hour (KWH) = 13.92. Take the 13.92KWH x 5 hours per day (ave show time) is 69.6kwh. The 69.6 is multiplied by 30 days (ave season burn) which is 2088KWH. Take this 2088 x $0.10 = $208.80 dollars seasonal electricity for using minis. LEDs use on ave .069 watts per lamp x 50,000 = 3450. 3450 x .001 = 3.45. 3.45 x 5 = 17.25. 17.25 x 30 = 517.5. 517.5 x $0.10 = $51.75 dollars seasonal electricity. LEDs would then save you $157.05 per year in electricity costs. However, using LOR to control the lights means they are not always turned on as in the above example. Maybe only on 1/2 the time. (Only you would know your show - I'm guessing....) At 50% on, you still save $78.53 per year in electricity costs if you went LED vs. minis. Most LEDs are rated at 20,000 hrs. Most minis are rated at 3000 hrs. So you will buy 6 times as many minis before the LEDs burn out (20,000/3,000=6.667), and that's if you don't drop them or step on them. And if you like blue lights - only 1 season 'til paints gone a flaking off... So when you compare this with the fact the some of the on-line vendors here have 3 year warranties on LEDs - I'm sold... As you grow your show, you will have to start using some LED's or low voltage RGB's. You are just going to high total amps to keep growing incandescent without modifying your electrical service.Again, this is just my opinion and others will disagree with me. I just like to do the math every once in a while so when my wife says something, I have many numbers she doesn't fully understand spewing from my mouth. I just hope if something happens to me, she sells the controllers and the lights for what they're worth, not what she thinks we paid. I don't lie to anyone, just not against the law to not tell all you know every time....Again - good luck,Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartmatte Posted May 13, 2015 Author Share Posted May 13, 2015 Thanks Daniel for your input. And trust me, I've done the math and cost analysis. I understand that most likely I will have to switch to leds. I am currently sitting over 40k incans and planning 10k or so more before showtime. I worked out my cost (approximately) of what it'll cost me for my bill lol. I plan on mon thru Thur 2 and half hr shows then Fri sat sun 4 hr shows. I know not all lights used in all shows and not all on all the time. Your future was about 75 bucks off, but yes I know still high. But I've alotted and planned on $300 Dec bill just in case my plans work out on a second 20 ft spiral tree (approx)4800 grn/4800 wh lights. I am going static before and after shows, but definitely not all lights, and probably at 60/70% brightness. I plan, which is a big word haha, on going to 150k incans next year, after I add my extra temp pole, and yes I'm writing this correctly, 250k incans for 2017. But I figure incans are my preference, yes I'll getalot of crazy looks by Bill from company, but I do plan/save for these upcoming bills. Hey, if I pay a 500 dollar light bill once a year and for that my 3 yr old son, neighbors kids, nieces/nephews all get that genuine grin from ear to ear and gaze at this spectacle that to them is something they've only dreamed of and still talk about my show to me in March/April, then it's a very small price tht I will sacrifice every year. Now, getting my wife to understand the expenses, hundreds and hundreds of hrs I spend from start to finish, and having to tell her I can't go to friends/families weddings in July bc I'm sick (but really working on lights Lmao), then I'd be alright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Sarge Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 My Back hurts to much in June, July from doing to much yard work (Mowing) trimming, replanting, painting trim... and whatever else I can think of for a excuse ..... that I cant ride for very long and just relax by doing some LOR and 4th July show stuff, and Halloween , Christmas etc. to just kick back and relax and give my back and or knees a break that I just cant go to a wedding and strain myself dancing.... walking to much.... sitting in the car to much..... I don't know your friends that you work with...so I would be to bored is not a good excuse so try to not use that one.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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