Powering RGB Lights - Question on Power Supply- Am I going to need 40 Amps?

[Christmas]

So I'm buying all my RGB supplies but I've run into an issue, I don't know how I'm going to power this thing. I want to buy 8 RGB Strips, 16.4 ft 300 leds. For a total of 2400 leds according to the ebay specs it's 60 watts per strip. So 60*8= 480 watts, So I'd need a 40 amp power supply, My outlets (circuit) are rated at 20 amps. How could I possibly power this?  Am I going to need to pull full power from two circuits in my house just to power these rgb lights???

Am I doing some wrong math here somewhere? (I hope so)

 

My Second Issue is I don't know how long I can safely run power wire from the power supply to LOR board and how long I can run RGB data cable.

I want to do RGB on my roof, but the issue is where to put power supply and RGB board to answer that I need to know how long I can run Data and power wire.

 

Shopping list 

8 16.4ft RGB Strips IP65 Waterproof 

1 32 foot RGB Extension Cable

1 25ft SPT 1 Wire 

1 66ft Power Extension Cable

1 CMB24D From LOR

[dgrant]

Ok, so you've got the calculation incorrect. The RGB's usually run at 12Volts, so if you have a requirement of 60 watts per strip, on full blast white, the formula would be 60 dvided by 12 or 5Amps at 12Volts.Its power draw from the line at 120 volts would be a lot different and lower. Each power supply's power requirements are different but for the sake of calculations, lets say its 360 watt supply, you divide 360watts by 120 volts and the result is 3Amps total when running full blast. Now in another thread here in the forums, MaxPaul has a nice analogy, if you buy a power supply that meets the needs but you run it full blast all the time, don't expect it to last, similar to buying a car with xxx HP and you've got your foot on the gas all the way to the floor all the time...the engine won't last.  Another consideration is that most likely in your sequencing, those RGB's won't all be on, full white, all the time. Anyway, your power box should have way more than enough to drive the power supply and actually several of them without thinking twice about it from just one circuit breaker. If I calc'd wrong, someone please correct me.

Edited September 6, 2014 by dgrant

[plasmadrive]

Let me jump in here with my two cents worth..

 

First off I like to run weatherproof power supplies so I don't have to worry about where I put them.  If yours are going to be inside that would not be a consideration.

 

dgrant is right that you calculations are a bit askew.  Given 60watts per strip x 8 strips you will only need 480watts.  There are a few losses to deal with so lets say 50 watts of loss.  So now you are at about 530watts of needed power.  At 120v that is close to 4.5 amps. 

 

Next, what you are ordering is going to be very bright right?  My house is 65' from the road and I used 30 LEDs per meter for the Plasma Icicles and it was plenty bright.. but then again, depends what you want for brightness.  These strips are "dumb" strips and the entire strip will be the same color.  You won't have pixel control, and you may not want it... but you mentioned "data cable" so I thought I would mention it.

Not sure what you have planned for that wire you listed but there is no gauge listed on the 4 conductor so hard to tell what the voltage drop would be. 
How far from the controller do you want the strips to be?  How far from the controller to the power supply?  You can't run these strips end to end without some degradation in color balance, so you will need to feed each one from the controller separately.

 

There are a lot of unanswered questions.. glad you popped on here and asked first.. now all we have to do is help you figure out your answers!   Need more info though..

[sax]

You don't mention what voltage those strips are using. 12v or 5v. That makes a huge difference in distance of how far the voltage will be able to be sent to your strips. Most strips and dumb RGB is 12 volts.

I centralize my controllers to hide them from potential thieves. So it costs me more in extension cables. Putting the controller next to the element not only allows you to use smaller power supplies but costs way less since all you need is a network cable. So it is cheaper to put the controller next to the element. But not always practical.

First, the current rating of your strips and power usage of those strips is listed for the DC power supply. The current usage of your DC supply coming off your AC circuit is different. Look at your DC power supply for current usage. It will be much less than the DC usage.

Now for how far you can extend your cables, remember that the only way you can be sure is to test for yourself. Test before you put anything up on your house. Then plan and replan as needed.

But, I can share what I have found. For my dumb RGB lights using 12v I am able to extend out of the cmd24 100 ft without any issue. I only needed 75 ft so I stopped testing knowing 75 ft is going to work easily. These are bullet style RGB lights with 100 bulbs.

I use a 360watt 12v power supply. I used custom made 100 ft extensions with 20awg RGB wire and 18 awg wire (yes 2 different size cables) with 18awg 4 pin connector pigtails. I also used premade extensions that are 25' in length 18 awg wire connected together.

I also tested using 18awg "T's" inserted between 5 ft extensions. This allows me to put wires and T's up a tree and connect a string of lights at each branch. So as the tree grows I just add a row of lights. Works great up to 75 ft...I only tested it that far. The black pine tree I am using only has 5 points with branches right now so I tested 6 T's. (1 for the trunk and 5 branches). Works great and I love the T's and how easy it made my life on that tree.

Again, these are my results. You should see similar results but always test first. This is for dumb lights only (each light on the strip or string are controlled as one light). Smart lights or pixels (each bulb or light is controlled seperatly) are a totally different subject. Do not expect these results for those lights.

As to what lights and supplies I used in the testing as well as cables....it is all in another post here in the forums. But, the controller I bought from LOR, all other components including lights, wire, cables, T's and extensions came from Ray Wu.

Good luck,

Sax

[Christmas]

Ok, so you've got the calculation incorrect. The RGB's usually run at 12Volts, so if you have a requirement of 60 watts per strip, on full blast white, the formula would be 60 dvided by 12 or 5Amps at 12Volts.Its power draw from the line at 120 volts would be a lot different and lower. Each power supply's power requirements are different but for the sake of calculations, lets say its 360 watt supply, you divide 360watts by 120 volts and the result is 3Amps total when running full blast. Now in another thread here in the forums, MaxPaul has a nice analogy, if you buy a power supply that meets the needs but you run it full blast all the time, don't expect it to last, similar to buying a car with xxx HP and you've got your foot on the gas all the way to the floor all the time...the engine won't last.  Another consideration is that most likely in your sequencing, those RGB's won't all be on, full white, all the time. Anyway, your power box should have way more than enough to drive the power supply and actually several of them without thinking twice about it from just one circuit breaker. If I calc'd wrong, someone please correct me.

I will be keeping in mind when creating my sequencing, I most likely won't exceed 75% intensity.

 

Let me jump in here with my two cents worth..

 

First off I like to run weatherproof power supplies so I don't have to worry about where I put them.  If yours are going to be inside that would not be a consideration.

 

dgrant is right that you calculations are a bit askew.  Given 60watts per strip x 8 strips you will only need 480watts.  There are a few losses to deal with so lets say 50 watts of loss.  So now you are at about 530watts of needed power.  At 120v that is close to 4.5 amps. 

 

Next, what you are ordering is going to be very bright right?  My house is 65' from the road and I used 30 LEDs per meter for the Plasma Icicles and it was plenty bright.. but then again, depends what you want for brightness.  These strips are "dumb" strips and the entire strip will be the same color.  You won't have pixel control, and you may not want it... but you mentioned "data cable" so I thought I would mention it.

Not sure what you have planned for that wire you listed but there is no gauge listed on the 4 conductor so hard to tell what the voltage drop would be. 

How far from the controller do you want the strips to be?  How far from the controller to the power supply?  You can't run these strips end to end without some degradation in color balance, so you will need to feed each one from the controller separately.

 

There are a lot of unanswered questions.. glad you popped on here and asked first.. now all we have to do is help you figure out your answers!   Need more info though..

Why does the power supply list 40 Amps? As I look for the power supplies in the higher wattages the amp's go up what does that mean? Is that the maximum draw? Like the one I linked in the thread, it's 480 watts but it's says 40 amps. So I'd be okay to run that powersupply? Assuming I'd only go to around 75% intensity on the lights to account for power loss.

 

You don't mention what voltage those strips are using. 12v or 5v. That makes a huge difference in distance of how far the voltage will be able to be sent to your strips. Most strips and dumb RGB is 12 volts.

I centralize my controllers to hide them from potential thieves. So it costs me more in extension cables. Putting the controller next to the element not only allows you to use smaller power supplies but costs way less since all you need is a network cable. So it is cheaper to put the controller next to the element. But not always practical.

First, the current rating of your strips and power usage of those strips is listed for the DC power supply. The current usage of your DC supply coming off your AC circuit is different. Look at your DC power supply for current usage. It will be much less than the DC usage.

Now for how far you can extend your cables, remember that the only way you can be sure is to test for yourself. Test before you put anything up on your house. Then plan and replan as needed.

But, I can share what I have found. For my dumb RGB lights using 12v I am able to extend out of the cmd24 100 ft without any issue. I only needed 75 ft so I stopped testing knowing 75 ft is going to work easily. These are bullet style RGB lights with 100 bulbs.

I use a 360watt 12v power supply. I used custom made 100 ft extensions with 20awg RGB wire and 18 awg wire (yes 2 different size cables) with 18awg 4 pin connector pigtails. I also used premade extensions that are 25' in length 18 awg wire connected together.

I also tested using 18awg "T's" inserted between 5 ft extensions. This allows me to put wires and T's up a tree and connect a string of lights at each branch. So as the tree grows I just add a row of lights. Works great up to 75 ft...I only tested it that far. The black pine tree I am using only has 5 points with branches right now so I tested 6 T's. (1 for the trunk and 5 branches). Works great and I love the T's and how easy it made my life on that tree.

Again, these are my results. You should see similar results but always test first. This is for dumb lights only (each light on the strip or string are controlled as one light). Smart lights or pixels (each bulb or light is controlled seperatly) are a totally different subject. Do not expect these results for those lights.

As to what lights and supplies I used in the testing as well as cables....it is all in another post here in the forums. But, the controller I bought from LOR, all other components including lights, wire, cables, T's and extensions came from Ray Wu.

Good luck,

Sax

Strips I'm looking at are 12v, as far as extensions I will need to test how long I can go. I'd like to be able to go about 75-100 ft as well, but my strips are 300 leds.

Thank you.

[dgrant]

I need to add suggestions too...Since you live in El Paso, its a bunch warmer than cold climate areas. You need to not only have the cabinet/case for the controller and power supply, if its all outside, but you need to consider active ventilation and protected from rain or worse. Heat is electronics worst enemy. Here where I am, one power supply has a fan within, therefore ventilation is needed. However, its very cold here in the winter. Anywhere from the 40's to 4 degrees. I don't need to worry so much about overheating but where you are and those out in S. Calif. or Florida, defintely have to consider ventilation.

[plasmadrive]

I will be keeping in mind when creating my sequencing, I most likely won't exceed 75% intensity.

 

Why does the power supply list 40 Amps? As I look for the power supplies in the higher wattages the amp's go up what does that mean? Is that the maximum draw? Like the one I linked in the thread, it's 480 watts but it's says 40 amps. So I'd be okay to run that powersupply? Assuming I'd only go to around 75% intensity on the lights to account for power loss.

 

Strips I'm looking at are 12v, as far as extensions I will need to test how long I can go. I'd like to be able to go about 75-100 ft as well, but my strips are 300 leds.

Thank you.

The 40 amps is the output on the DC side.  12v x 40 amp is 480 watts of power.  Voltage x current = wattage.. (mostly).  There are some losses to account for.  The power supply is not 100% efficient and will use power in its conversion.  Figure 10% is a safe number.

 

BTW, don't forget fusing to protect the wiring... very important! 

 

I would never design a system thinking that you will not program it for anything other than 100%.  Not necessarily the best thing to do.  Always go with worst case, that way you are safe and you can program any way you want in the future.

 

If you use weatherproof power supplies you won't have to worry about a cabinet or fans or venting. That is a pain in the butt if you are not set up to assemble stuff and ultimately will cost you more.  Also, the way some of the guys are doing these is so far outside of the conditions that power supplies were designed for it is amazing they don't have more failures.  The fact that they do flashing and not constant on is most likely their saving grace.  Weatherproof supplies don't really cost that much more and will save you time and effort if you need them to be outside.  If you can put them inside, then open frame supplies are not so bad.

 

If you are going to start down this path.. start the right way in the beginning.. 

[sax]

My last bit of input on power supplies. Here are specs for various supplies. Output current and input current are separate. For these power supplies, no matter your output current the input current is 6.5 amps. All power supplies are not created equal. Look at the specs for your power supply. I try to never go over 85% use with constant use. Yes, I let mine spike above 90% for short periods.

The chart did not come out perfect but hey, copy paste in iPad not perfect.

Model HS-350-5 HS-350-12 HS-350-15 HS-350-24 HS-350-27 HS-350-31

Specification

DC output voltage

5V

12V

15V

24V

27V

31V

Output voltage tolerance(Note:2)

±2%

±1%

±1%

±1%

±1%

±1%

Rated output current

70A

29A

23.2A

14.6A

13A

11.3A

Output current rage

0-70A

0-29A

0-23.2A

0-14.6A

0-13A

0-11.3A

Wave and noise(Note :3)

150mVp-p

150mVp-p

150mVp-p

150mVp-p

1500mVp-p

200mVp-p

Inlet stability(Note :4)

±0.5%

±0.5%

±0.5%

±0.5%

±0.5%

±0.5%

Load stablity (Note :5)

±1%

±0.5%

±0.5%

±0.5%

±0.5%

±0.5%

Efficiency

78%

80%

80%

82%

82%

84%

Adjustable range for DC voltage

4.5-5.6V

10-13.2V

13.5-18V

20-26.4V

26-32V

41-56V

AC input voltage range 85~132VAC/180-264VAC 47-63Hz;254-370VDC

Input current 6.5A/115V 4A/230V

AC INrush current

25A/115V 50A/230V

Leakage current <3.5mA/240VAC

Overload protection 105%~135% hiccup mode, auto recovery

Over voltage protection 115%-135% cut off the output, auto recovery

High-temperature protection ERH3>=65°C~70°C Fan on,<=55°C~60°CFan off,>=80°C~85°C,Cut off output(5~15V)Cut off output(5~15)~(24~48V)

Temperature coefficient ±0.03%/°C(0~50%)

Setup rise hold up time 200ms,100ms,20ms

Vibration 10~500Hz,2G 10min,/1cycle,Period for 60min,each axes

Withstand voltage Input and output internal:1.5KVAC,Input and enclosure:1.5KVAC,Output and enclosure:0.5KVAC

Isolation resistance Input and output internal:Input and enclosure,Output and enclosure:500VDC/100MΩ

Working temperature and humidity -10°C~+60°C(Refer to output derating curve),20%~90%RH

Store temperature and humidity -20°C~+85°C,10%~95%RH

Overall dimension 215×115×50mm

Weight/Packing 1.15Kgs, 24pc/CTN

Note:

1.The testing condition for the parameter above is :230VAC input,rated load,25°C70% RH.Humidity.

2.Tolerance include the setting tolerance,line stability and load stability.(Note:5).

3.Wave test:adopting "A12"double wire for 20MHz,and 0.1UF&47UF capacitor short-circuit for interrupting.

4.Inlet voltage stability test:when is over load,the lowest voltage of inlet is up to the highest voltage.

5.Load stability test:the load is from 0% to 100%.

[plasmadrive]

Ok.. using the info supplied by Sax, I was optimistic about the efficiency, if you use those supplies... looks more like a 20% buffer is required, not 10%.  So for 480 watts you would need to add about 100 watts more, give or take..

 

Those supplies by the way will have no issue running at 100%.  So spiking up to 90% is no big deal.  All good supply manufacturers build in a component buffer.  Meanwell has a pretty low one, Cosel and Lambda are usually higher.  So at 85% you should be golden as far as load goes.  Not really sure about the other Chinese ones.. may not be good to run them up that high.. don't know

[Max-Paul]

I need to add suggestions too...Since you live in El Paso, its a bunch warmer than cold climate areas. You need to not only have the cabinet/case for the controller and power supply, if its all outside, but you need to consider active ventilation and protected from rain or worse. Heat is electronics worst enemy. Here where I am, one power supply has a fan within, therefore ventilation is needed. However, its very cold here in the winter. Anywhere from the 40's to 4 degrees. I don't need to worry so much about overheating but where you are and those out in S. Calif. or Florida, defintely have to consider ventilation.

dgrant you will need to worry about condensing moisture. Where as our friend in El Paso will have to worry about things that crawl around looking for a warm place to hole up in. Even El Paso has cool nights where bugs and things like lizards.

[dgrant]

dgrant you will need to worry about condensing moisture. Where as our friend in El Paso will have to worry about things that crawl around looking for a warm place to hole up in. Even El Paso has cool nights where bugs and things like lizards.

You are absolutely correct! 

[Christmas]

Ok.. using the info supplied by Sax, I was optimistic about the efficiency, if you use those supplies... looks more like a 20% buffer is required, not 10%.  So for 480 watts you would need to add about 100 watts more, give or take..

 

Those supplies by the way will have no issue running at 100%.  So spiking up to 90% is no big deal.  All good supply manufacturers build in a component buffer.  Meanwell has a pretty low one, Cosel and Lambda are usually higher.  So at 85% you should be golden as far as load goes.  Not really sure about the other Chinese ones.. may not be good to run them up that high.. don't know

Can you recommend me a power supply? I'm thinking I'm going to need two of them because I've see Power supplies up to 480 watts, which is my maximum need. I was thinking This E-Goal in the 40A version and add in a 100 watt waterproof that I can inject power to some strips of lights.

dgrant you will need to worry about condensing moisture. Where as our friend in El Paso will have to worry about things that crawl around looking for a warm place to hole up in. Even El Paso has cool nights where bugs and things like lizards.

Correct, I did have to deal with some bugs last year getting into the box I kept my LOR box in. Some pesticide fixes that issue. Edited September 7, 2014 by Christmas

[plasmadrive]

Personally I would split is up about 50/50.  Two supplies at about 250 watts each.  Are you going to put them inside or outside? 

 

You may find this interesting  http://forums.lightorama.com/index.php?/topic/32385-things-you-should-know-about-power-supplies/

[Christmas]

Personally I would split is up about 50/50.  Two supplies at about 250 watts each.  Are you going to put them inside or outside? 

 

You may find this interesting  http://forums.lightorama.com/index.php?/topic/32385-things-you-should-know-about-power-supplies/

That's 500 watts of power in all. My max would power would be 480 watts assuming I'd go to 100% intensity on all white. Power loss I'm thinking is going to be around 15%

I'm thinking of having one non-waterproof inside, and one outside to inject power where needed.

In the event I should need to put the CMB24D outside along with a non water proof psu could I count on CableGuard Enclosure from creative lighting display. There ready to go kit is sold with a vent, so I think I'll need to vent it but wouldn't that make it not waterproof? I could find a spot for it under my roof somewhere so it won't get direct rain on it, if it's outside it might get wet.

It hardly rains here, when it does it's small amounts. 

Edited September 7, 2014 by Christmas

[plasmadrive]

That's 500 watts of power in all. My max would power would be 480 watts assuming I'd go to 100% intensity on all white. Power loss I'm thinking is going to be around 15%

I'm thinking of having one non-waterproof inside, and one outside to inject power where needed.

In the event I should need to put the CMB24D outside along with a non water proof psu could I count on CableGuard Enclosure from creative lighting display. There ready to go kit is sold with a vent, so I think I'll need to vent it but wouldn't that make it not waterproof? I could find a spot for it under my roof somewhere so it won't get direct rain on it, if it's outside it might get wet.

It hardly rains here, when it does it's small amounts. 

The wattage usually refers to the available OUTPUT power.  The input power requirement will be higher in terms of wattage.. 

 

I can't for the life of me think of why anyone would mess with buying a demarc box and go thru the pain of mounting, venting and wiring a power supply.  By the time you get to that point you most likely could have bought a supply that is rated for outdoors.. Just a thought.. Save your time for programming and making props!     The box with the vent he is selling still does not make the indoor power supplies suitable for outside use... You may get away with it.. but it is not the best solution nor do I think it pass the pollution degree requirements for safe operation.. (depends on your supply of course).  Moisture in the air is a big factor in what you want to do. That would need to be damp location rated to be considered "safe"....  You can most likely "get away with it".. but consider that it would be up under the eves of your house... usually the most vulnerable spot for fire outside of a shake roof for most houses..

BTW, I did the 1999/2000 New Years Eve Laser show for the city of El Paso..  It was cold on that roof and the dampness in the air caused me all kinds of issues with the lasers.. We had to guard against it I found out during testing.. Just sayin...

[Christmas]

The wattage usually refers to the available OUTPUT power.  The input power requirement will be higher in terms of wattage.. 

 

I can't for the life of me think of why anyone would mess with buying a demarc box and go thru the pain of mounting, venting and wiring a power supply.  By the time you get to that point you most likely could have bought a supply that is rated for outdoors.. Just a thought.. Save your time for programming and making props!     The box with the vent he is selling still does not make the indoor power supplies suitable for outside use... You may get away with it.. but it is not the best solution nor do I think it pass the pollution degree requirements for safe operation.. (depends on your supply of course).  Moisture in the air is a big factor in what you want to do. That would need to be damp location rated to be considered "safe"....  You can most likely "get away with it".. but consider that it would be up under the eves of your house... usually the most vulnerable spot for fire outside of a shake roof for most houses..

BTW, I did the 1999/2000 New Years Eve Laser show for the city of El Paso..  It was cold on that roof and the dampness in the air caused me all kinds of issues with the lasers.. We had to guard against it I found out during testing.. Just sayin...

As it turns out I won't be needed so much power for my roof Foot is about 50 ft, I had over estimated how many strips I was going to need.

Question: what RGB Extension Cable should I get? What gauge should I look for? The cable will be run outside, across the roof and such.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Christmas

[dgrant]

For mine, longest run is about 75 feet of extension so I ordered a spool of 16 awg, 4 conductor, outside cable. I went with the larger wire to hope reduce any line-loss.

[plasmadrive]

dgrant, if Chistmas used 16 gauge copper wire at 75' each way is about .6 ohms in total.  If you are running two RGB strips at the same time, that would be about 10 amps max for Christmas if he used those strips he linked to.. that means about a 6v drop when on white.  Not good for him

As it turns out I won't be needed so much power for my roof Foot is about 50 ft, I had over estimated how many strips I was going to need.

Question: what RGB Extension Cable should I get? What gauge should I look for? The cable will be run outside, across the roof and such.

so what, 4 strips?  That is about 20 amps.. That is about 240 watts if you use the strips you linked to.   How far from the supply to the strips.. wire length, not physical length.

[Christmas]

dgrant, if Chistmas used 16 gauge copper wire at 75' each way is about .6 ohms in total.  If you are running two RGB strips at the same time, that would be about 10 amps max for Christmas if he used those strips he linked to.. that means about a 6v drop when on white.  Not good for him

so what, 4 strips?  That is about 20 amps.. That is about 240 watts if you use the strips you linked to.   How far from the supply to the strips.. wire length, not physical length.

6 strips across the roof. Each in it's own channel.

Spec In this thread including how long each strip will be, with a crude drawing of what I'm planning on running the cables. My longest extension I don't think will be more than 50 feet.

[plasmadrive]

Are you only having one color per strip?