Oh What to do?

[scubado]

This is a lot like school, as far as the reading goes. Although I am enjoying this  a bit more than I did in school.

 

I am moving through all of the training videos I find and am well on the way to becoming a complete nut. I was and guess still am a bit confused on the DMX application and wonder if it is even needed in my case.

 The other day I started on the Superstar to start adding color to my planned display. I read about networks and am not sure but am thinking that networks are for my application. If I understand it there is a limit of smart strips/lights on a network, I think the example was 6 ribbons. Is this correct and if so what are the hidden disadvantages of multiple networks.  Are you planning to use smart or dumb ribbon?  Smart ribbon has this limit, dumb does not.  Using dumb ribbon will keep it simple and cheaper and easier to program.  Superstar not needed for dumb setups.  For your main landscaping I would stick with dumb lighting and then use pixel if you want for holiday elements.  IMHO

 

With any luck I will have the layout for my entire project soon, Scary to look at but I am planning to get all the cable in the ground that I could ever use and I do mean ever. So as I add to the lights it will be plug and play.

 

Which brings me to my next question, I have been able to sequence one entire song so far and in that process I have added, deleted and moved controllers around, On the first sequence I have 4 16 channel controllers along with some RGB. The sequences are built with all of the channels but on first install I will not have all of the controllers in place. Is there a problem running sequences with not all of the programmed controllers in place. Also in the sequencer software do all of the channels need to appear together, ie; my gutter line around the house will have 17 channels, I will pull one channel of another controller but to help see what I am programming in the sequencer I would like the 17th channel to appear with the other 16 gutter channels. any trouble with that?  Software doesn't care.

 

Thanks

[nam1956]

Startin to feel like pretty smart here, may need to move up to like "newbie first class" or some better rank soon. Anyway, in reality I'm still running in big circles figurin out the backbone cabling  that I'm wanting to put in. I understand the theory of each (E1.31, DMX and LOR) and to tell you the truth it is looking like it is best to plan to use all three in some fashion. I like the E1.31 because when I had my house built I prewired it with voice (cat3), Data (cat5) and video (coax) in 27 locations in the house including  behind appliances, in the garage, in the bathrooms and in the attic so starting the network is already done using the E1.31. Just pull the patch cord of the needed locations for lights off of the home network, place a switch and re-patch to the new switch. Install a new network card in the PC and DONE.

From there (At the end of each network leg) the way I understand it'Il need what ever that freakin box is called to convert  E1.31 to dmx. My question at this point is, WTH way to go? I for some reason am seeing disadvantages with DMX, not sure why I see disadvantages or even what they are. When using the E1.31 to DMX converter I know I get 4 universes out but how big is a universe, really. Is it 512 unit numbers (Controllers), to me it is looking like it is 512 light bulbs. So lets say I have a universe with 2 16 channel controllers, 2  24 channel controllers (dumb RGB) and 3 CCR on it.  DMX is lookin at this setup as 32 +48 + 450 = 530, to much for a universe....... Right? But then there is no way to just hang a LOR controller on the E1.31 network (without a E1.31 to DMX converter) and have it work.... is there?

[Steven]

LOR uses only 2 of the 4 pairs in a cat5 cable, and Ethernet (used by E1.31) also uses 2 of the 4 pairs. Therefore, it is possible, with a little re-wiring, to send both E1.31 and LOR over a single cat5 cable. (Of course it would be better to use separate cables, but if your location is pre-wired, and you only have 1 cable, then this may be your best choice.)

 

The pairs in a cat5 cable, using EIA 568B, are numbered this way:

pair 1: pins 5&4 (blue)

pair 2: pins 3&6 (green)

pair 3: pins 1&2 (orange)

pair 4: pins 7&8 (brown)

 

Ethernet uses pairs 2 and 3. LOR uses pairs 1 and 2. So what you need to do on each end of your single cable run is to split the cable and connect pairs 2 and 3 straight through to the first plug, and pairs 1 and 4 to pairs 1 and 2 on the second plug. The 2nd plug will be used for LOR and the first plug for Ethernet (E1.31).

[kiplorenzo]

I will eventually be heading to E1.31 with DMX. I did find some really neat intelligent icicles.. yes they are DIY, but they are cheaper than 16 boxes each of Red Green Blue Icicle Lights and 1 more LOR Controller: http://sdrv.ms/1fxzCU9

 

I'm finding that choice of lights to use dictates what medium. I found these to build the Icicles with: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/5m-DC12V-INK1003-led-pixel-srip-IP68-60pcs-1002led-5050-RGB-with-bulit-in-INK1003-IC/1546163504.html

 

the one thing I did decide to do as I am also mounting cables underground is to run a string with a large washer on 1 end to the opposite ends of the pipes. If I need to change something or add to the display, just attach a cord to the string and 1 extra string and pull through the pipe to the desired location.the cord comes through and a new string is in place for more pull through. I've used the entec DMX Controller as I am using XLR connections to stage equipment.

[nam1956]

Steven, Understood but wire is no problem here. Don't like to rob pairs so if needed will throw in another cat5. The way I understand the application is that you can put LOR controllers behind the E1.31 to DMX converter, they need to be daisy chained at that point but that is no problem. I'm a thinkin that is the most flexible setup.

 

Kip, never pull a wire through a pipe with out another pull string, I have gone into locations to add a wire and found pipe with out a pull string and spent hours trying to get another wire in without destroying the wire already in the pipe, drives me nut when using a string would make the job so much easier and quicker. I have wired every thing from a cave (Marvel Cave, Silver Dollar City) to McDonald Douglas (26,000 phones and desk tops). So I will get the wire figured out and am in fact very close to it. I like the smart icicles.

[Steven]

You can put LOR controllers on a DMX network behind an E1.31 bridge, but there are advantages to running the LOR controllers on their separate LOR network:

1. It is easier to troubleshoot, because the path is from the show player, through the USB-485, to the controllers. If anything in that path is not working, then the status light on the controller will flash. When using them in DMX mode, the path is from the show player, through the LORCommListener, out the network port, into the E1.31-to-DMX bridge, to the controllers. In this mode, the status light can't tell you if something goes wrong with several of those links.
2. In LOR mode, you can use the hardware utility to troubleshoot or configure the LOR controllers. For instance, if a controller has to be replaced in the field, you can use the hardware utility to change its ID. You can't do that over DMX.
3. You can use input triggers in LOR mode.
4. In LOR mode, the controllers do fading, twinkling, and shimmering themselves, which is often more consistent.

[nam1956]

Thanks Steven, That is the kind of stuff I'm interested in at this point, I like knowing the problems I might run into. I love a challenge and this looks to be a good one.  #1 listed above is good to know but not yet quite sure if it would present a major issue, even though this lighting thing is new to me I feel rather comfortable with the trouble shooting of  the backbone of the setup. I have a collection of tools for use in trouble shooting these issues and have been working with low voltages for a long time, but still very good to know.

#2,  in the case of a bad controller, couldn't the replacement controller # be set on a laptop or a second PC, all it takes to set the ID# in the sequencing software right?

 

#3 Very important issue, since this is first of all everyday landscaping lighting I want to be able to  use trigger/motion detectors to trigger lighting along pathways and such. Haven't yet got to the trigger information in the guides/tutorials.

 

#4, possible a deal breaker for DMX in my application

 

That last one may send me back to straight LOR, When starting here I first started to set up or plan a show using every possible light I could using nothing but LOR. My plan was/is to learn the software while I get enough knowledge to ask the important questions. In the set up that I have on the S3 software I have every light I would/could put in so first of all I can determine the backbone I need to put into walls, pipe or whatever to support all of this. As I added controllers and read more about the various features I came across the network information and thought it would fit my needs well, but as I converted the config to several networks in the sequencer it seemed too big and cumbersome to work through but I continued on. I then started to read more about the DMX set up with LOR behind it, I liked it a lot, the way the sequencer software collapses the DMX to one line yet you can expand it to work with much like the RGB programing. It also seemed to be the way to slowly build a network. My setup will consist of three zones (for the lack of a better term), The first will be the upper landscaping lighting it along with the second zone (lower landscaping) lights will be the first to go in and will go in complete from the beginning, meaning there will be very little adding , moving or even messing with them once in. The third zone is Christmas/holiday lighting which I'm sure will be in a state of constant change. The reason they are broke up is that they are in different locations, one in the backyard. one in the side yard and one in the front yard, which is the reason I like the E1.31 set up I would only daisy chain behind the Converter and only within each zone, no between zone chaining causing very long loops in the cat5. It also seem like it would be easy to add unplanned elements by simply throwing another converter on the network. The other real difference is that I am planning to have Christmas display features in all zones because my house can be seen from the surrounding streets from all directions. I also plan on using the two landscaping zones as party/social gatherings lighting, playing with music.

 

 

  In my line of work I set up phone systems and then trouble shoot the bugs out of it both hardware and software bugs. It is a whole lot like setting up these lights in that all of the info tells of all the wonderful things they do but kinda glosses over the limitations you may run across. These limitations are not bugs in most cases but truly limitations and can really screw up even the best laid plans and I hate that, so I go through my applications a lot and do a lot of role playing with them to try out just about every thing that could possible happen. I rarely get it completely right, changes do happen, yep women change their minds and then the men need to make it happen. Hope I'm not asking to many dumb questions here, people are helpful here and I am learning a lot. After all the only really dumb question is the one you don't ask.  Thanks

[Steven]

#2,  in the case of a bad controller, couldn't the replacement controller # be set on a laptop or a second PC, all it takes to set the ID# in the sequencing software right?

 

That is correct.

 

I liked it a lot, the way the sequencer software collapses the DMX to one line yet you can expand it to work with much like the RGB programing.

 

The sequencer software doesn't treat LOR and DMX channels differently. You can collapse and expand both kinds of channels (using groups), and you can combine any 3 channels into an RGB channel. In fact, if you have sequenced a bunch of lights as DMX channels, and then decide to move those channels to a LOR controller, you simply change your channel configuration.

 

My setup will consist of three zones (for the lack of a better term), The first will be the upper landscaping lighting it along with the second zone (lower landscaping) lights will be the first to go in and will go in complete from the beginning, meaning there will be very little adding , moving or even messing with them once in. The third zone is Christmas/holiday lighting which I'm sure will be in a state of constant change. The reason they are broke up is that they are in different locations, one in the backyard. one in the side yard and one in the front yard, which is the reason I like the E1.31 set up I would only daisy chain behind the Converter and only within each zone, no between zone chaining causing very long loops in the cat5.

 

There are several solutions for the problem of multiple zones.

 

The LOR network is an RS485 network, which must be a single line with 2 ends. However, one of those ends doesn't have to be at the computer. In my display, I use a USB-485B, which has 2 sockets (connected in parallel internally, as are the 2 or 3 sockets in LOR controllers). I run a cable from one socket to the East side, and one to the West side. You could run 2 cables from your USB-485B, one to the upper zone and the other to the lower zone. You will then still have a single network with no 'Y's.

 

You can also run multiple LOR networks on a single show computer. You could plug a 2nd USB-485 into another USB port and use that for your Christmas zone. In my display I have a 2nd network connected to an ELL for the houses across the street. The hardwired network runs at a higher speed.

 

Another option, if you want to split a single LOR network into a 'Y' configuration is to use a LOR Network Repeater.

[Premier]

Hello all, I'm new here but eager to dive into this once I figure out what I'm jumping into. I need suggestions for what may end up being a rather large project in the end. The project is starting out as a landscape job in my yard. I am doing all of the work myself to save money and am to the stage that I need to look at lighting. My plans include water features, 2 ponds, several water falls, a bridge and fish. I first want to look at lighting for the water features, one of the waterfalls will be constructed of landscaping blocks made for steps. It will be a series (10-15)of steps dropping about 6 foot. Each kick plate (riser) will be lit so the water flows over the light. I am guessing strips would be the best for this location. But what are my options on color schemes and so on. I would like total flexibility here, possibly controlling each bulb in all of the strips separately. Not much to ask, Right?

  Sticking with the water for now I also would like to install some underwater lighting, these two ponds are connected with underground pipe and one feeds the other and then the water recycles through a filter back into the upper pond. The water flows out of a 3 inch pipe into the bottom of the lower, I want to light this opening along with a couple of underwater rock features.

   I'm thinking this is enough for now other than the fact that all of this lighting either exposed to water or underwater I will also be installing a lot of "Regular" landscaping light that I hope to include in the sequences when I build them.

 

What you think?????  

As a licensed landscaper in the state of Oregon we have done many similar projects, you may want to look into LED Bricks, You can get this in either a solid color or a variety of controllable colors, nice products, weather sealed and if you are doing bricks these  are available in several sizes and shapes, do a google or bing search under LED PAVER LIGHTS.

 

Wide variety of underwater lights also available.

 

One note of caution, most landscape lights are 12 volt and require a transformer, to control several lights independently you may also need that many transformers ( depending on type and style of lighting selected ).

 

Have fun with your project

[Steven]

One note of caution, most landscape lights are 12 volt and require a transformer, to control several lights independently you may also need that many transformers ( depending on type and style of lighting selected ).

 

There are several people on this board who have run 12 volt AC through half of an AC controller, for example in this thread. This allows you to use a single transformer to control multiple channels of 12vac lights.

[nam1956]

Thanks Premier, I will look into those, they sound great for building into staircases,

 

I have a few questions that I fore some reason am not clear on,

 

1, Can I cut and extend smart RGB strips, what are the options for short sections, 3' or so?

 2, How does the software handle missing controllers when running a sequence?

 

 there was another question but it has seemed to slip my mind, so I'll go with that for now.

[Steven]

1, Can I cut and extend smart RGB strips, what are the options for short sections, 3' or so?

 

Yes, as long as the distance between pixels is kept short. The maximum distance depends on which pixels you are using. If you need to extend the strip further, you can put a "dummy" pixel, that you don't turn on, in between to regenerate the signal.

 

As you extend the strip, you may also need to inject power to compensate for voltage drops.

 

2, How does the software handle missing controllers when running a sequence?

All player software just sends lighting commands on the network. There is no acknowledgement sent back from the controllers, so the software doesn't know if a controller is missing.

 

The LOR network is bi-directional, but data is sent back from the controllers only when queried by something like the hardware utility, or polled for input triggers.

 

 there was another question but it has seemed to slip my mind, so I'll go with that for now.

Maybe it's time for a beer.

[nam1956]

Thanks,  By extending I was looking to extend the length of wire between the controller and the first light, So I can place the controller in a controlled environment.

Still working to figure out the gutter line around the house. I'm sure as I work my way through programing RGB in the sequencer things will maybe start to fall together.  An effect that I want for the gutter line is chasing completely around the house but also want to control various portions separately. with the standard effects (fade, twinkle ect.). On two sections of the gutter line I will be looking at these stretches as a bunch off one foot segments side by side. (if that makes any sense) The reason being I am working a sequence that will use these little sections.

  What I'm wondering is, does it make any sense to take dumb RGB strips and cut them into 1' strips and eat up a controller or so to achive this or would the way to go be a smart RGB in these two locations. 16 foot is plenty long which means I would need 4 24 channel controllers and 2 dumb strips or two smart strips, I'm thinking the dumb strips would be a little cheaper but at the same time they would be a bit more work.

[Steven]

If you're thinking of using the dumb strips to save money, then don't do it. To put it in perspective, take the extra cost it would take for smart strips and divide that by the length of time you expect to use it, and see if it makes sense in a $ per year way.

 

One problem with 8 dumb sections vs 1 smart ribbon is the quantity of wire that will have to be mounted.

[nam1956]

That is basically the way I was thinking but needed to through it out to the experts

[nam1956]

Talk about seeing dots, I have sequenced three songs so far and in fact I have sequenced one of the 3 times, what a job. Once I finish and throughout the sequencing I play it often and enjoy the light show the sequencer provides on play back, Although it will be a while before I see the Christmas lights I do get a good idea of what it will look like. I'm not spending as much time on it as when I started but still working at it. The backbone wiring I'm still a bit not confused but just not sure what to do yet (E1.31, LOR, DMX or a mix of some or all) but am thinking that I will be able to keep all controllers inside in one location or another except in the front yard which I will build to power 3-16 channel controllers, 4-24 channel Dumb RGB controllers and 6 Smart controllers. Not that will all go in quickly but it is the max that will go in the front. In the Garage, basement and a storage area under one of the decks I will run 3-cat5 runs to each location and mount needed power supplies at each location.

 

I built a chart of what the most lights I would ever put in around the total house, both landscaping and holiday lights, talk about scary. Did not take the time to figure out the # of pixels but I was a bit above 52 controllers and still had a little more to do before I figured out I was a freakin nut and moved on.

 

I do have one question for the experts here, What is the biggest Smart pixel controller that I can reasonably get my hands on.

 

Thanks again

[Dennis Laff]

Holiday Coro has a new pixel controller that handles 16,320 channels or 5,440 pixels or 32 universes

[nam1956]

correct me if I am wrong but it looks like that controller will handle 50+ smart strips (16' 300 pixel). I'm sure there will need to be power infused at various points though. That controller will handle all of the lights mounted under the gutters and up and down the various peaks around my house, If I have this right I could hook these smart strips together end to end and infuse power at each strip....... correct?

[nam1956]

OMG, the lighting world is in for...................................hell possibly total destruction due to an explosion in Missouri, yep I got some lights, a little power, some cables, software and an imagination that could end up being combustible when all are combined. I'm bettin you all can guess what I'll be doin tonight. Watch for a lot of smoke preceded by some flashing lights in the sky over Saint Louis tonight to gauge my progress.

[nam1956]

Been playing with the HC starter package I received and have not blown anything up...............................yet. I have converted a few solar lights made to fit on the top of the post for my deck and they are working great. Next for me is the real thing. I am looking at the HC 27 channel controller at HC to control the lights that will be on the small deck (11'x8') and believe that this controller will provide enough channels (9) for this part of the project. I plan on getting a software license from LOR and the dongle. Any body see a conflict or problem with this setup. After playing with the sequence editor I like or at least have became comfortable with the LOR version so I will in the end be using it. On the deck I will be using to start 3 of the dumb RGB square modules (Single units) and 4 RGB dumb strips leaving me 2 RGB channels on the controller for the future. You all see ant problems or conflicts here?

 

Thanks