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Are controllers CSA?


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I was wondering weather showtime controllers are CSA approved for outdoor use?

Also wondering weather the Hobyest cards are CSA and if it is possible to make a hobbiest card CSA with a proper box?

Are their CSA markings on the controller itself?

If a Hobbiest Card that is CSA was put into a CSA approve outdoor box would the whole unit become CSA for outdoor use?

Also would a hobbiest card in a CSA box be approved by the ESA (electrical Safety Authority)?

Would the ESA approve a showtime controller?

Zac

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Zac, just what in the heck did you just say?

We all know if an LOR card gets wet and is in use there will be problems. So not sure of the point and all the letters.

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I have been contaced by a company (Mercedes Bens) that praticipates in a Festival of Lights nearby every year. The want me to do a computerized display. The only problem is the town that runs the even will only let Outdoor CSA items be in the displays. Also everything will be inspected before the display is turned on by ESA. Everything has to be outdoor and all connections seald with plastica nd electrical tape. It is very strict.

My main question is this:

If a Hobbiest Card that is CSA was put into a CSA approve outdoor box would the whole unit become CSA?

And alos weather showtime controllers are outdoor CSA approved.

Zac

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Zac,

The LOR products are not CSA approved. The LOR Showtime enclosure is UL approved for the USA as NEMA 3R but they are not CSA approved as sold by LOR.

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I was under the impression that if a product was UL approved, it was meeting the CSA approbation. Maybe the organizers could direct you to the person doing the inspections to verify.

Yves

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Daniel Hall wrote:

Zac, LOR board are not UL approved only the enclosure is.
This is true. I'm not sure what you have to do to get UL (Underwriters Laborotories) to test for UL listing status. I do know that all, and I mean all, parts inside the controller would have to be UL listed also. Don't forget that the UL is a great company and trustworthy as I'll get out, but it is a company, so Dan would probably have to pay something to get them to look at it (like providing a controller, paying shipping ect...) and have to pay for their UL requirments, like UL Listed® lables and if it is rejected, then it is put on their website as rejected equipment. All in all, it is a big hassle, but for widespread commercial and wholesale distribution it is worth it, but not for something as small as this. If Dan's controller's keep up this rapid growth, he may decide to try to get it in the future, but that would probably be years away.
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Brad Stevens wrote:

Daniel Hall wrote:
Zac, LOR board are not UL approved only the enclosure is.
This is true. I'm not sure what you have to do to get UL (Underwriters Laborotories) to test for UL listing status. I do know that all, and I mean all, parts inside the controller would have to be UL listed also. Don't forget that the UL is a great company and trustworthy as I'll get out, but it is a company, so Dan would probably have to pay something to get them to look at it (like providing a controller, paying shipping ect...) and have to pay for their UL requirments, like UL Listed® lables and if it is rejected, then it is put on their website as rejected equipment. All in all, it is a big hassle, but for widespread commercial and wholesale distribution it is worth it, but not for something as small as this. If Dan's controller's keep up this rapid growth, he may decide to try to get it in the future, but that would probably be years away.

I may have misunderstood, but as I understand it, Zac's question is whether placing a non-approved device in an approved enclosure would make the application an approved application.

Can I place my iPod in a CSA-approved enclosure and consider it protected from the weather to the standards required by the CSA? Sounds like a question for the inspectors.
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You kind of have my question more right, but I was wondering weather I placed a UL approved for INDOOR use item in a UL approved for outdoor use box, weather the whole unit outside would kind of become UL approved for outdoor use?

Make more sense? But since the controllers are no UL approved I am not sure.

Zac

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I can answer this one since I have to deal with this at work....

In order for something to be UL or CSA approved it must be submitted to the respective agency for testing. (and yes this does cost money... $600 to $2500 depending)

Once it passes (or fails..EEK!) in order to utilize the approval the manufacturer must follow certain testing guidlines as set forth by the agency such as electrical testing and Hipot testing as well as ground (earth) leakage and integrity on every unit during manufacture.

The agency also sends inspectors periodically to assure that all procedures are being followed and that all componants are the same as when approved.
(Change one part in the design and it must be resubmitted)

And to answer your question about the CSA or UL enclosure.. the answer is: NO, it is an assembly and would have to be approved as an assembly.
So it would not be approved...:?

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terrypowerz wrote:

And to answer your question about the CSA or UL enclosure.. the answer is: NO, it is an assembly and would have to be approved as an assembly.
So it would not be approved...:?

Witness the power of the Internet ... ask a question and you get the answer from someone who knows what they're talking about.

You might still talk to the organizers to see if they would be satisfied with having the non-approved boards in a CSA-approved enclosure.

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Here is the Light O Rama story on approval....

All high voltage components in our controllers are UL approved. The total assembly is not UL approved. We did get UL-508 approval on one of our controllers (the LOR600 which is no longer in the store). We learned a lot about what is necessary to get the approval and applied that to our current controllers. (someone mentioned approval for $2500) I need to find that lab! We paid many times that number to get our equipment approved.

Even if you put two UL approved devices together the new device needs to be approved.

As far as CSA vs UL... Because a device is UL approved does not mean that it is CSA approved. For example the enclosures used for show time products are UL approved as we use them however they require and additional grounding strap to be CSA approved.

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With something as cutting edge as a computer controlled display I would say that it would be silly to expect the "controllers" to be CSA approved.
I am certain that if it is explained that the units are "custom built" (since you put it in the box) and offer to have the inspectors review the construction and safety precautions you are going to take that the town would be acceptable to such an arrangement.

The simple act of putting CSA/UL approved lights onto any kind of a frame (wireframe, megatree, etc.) actually means that the display item is no longer ACTUALLY approved.

So unless they do the display with off the shelf approved assembled peices there are already exceptions...

I am sure you should be able to work out an arrangement Zac.... they just want it to be safe.:)

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Newbie to planet, but I am do have experience with CSA and UL as well as about 17 other cert agancies, first don't just slap a UL sticker on it, that is why they ask for CSA. UL doesn't require CSA and CSA doesn't require UL, they normally do because they do desructive testing on the equipment.

anyhow I digress ....

the board could be certified by LOR, but if it goes in a different enclosure it will need to be recertified and then if there is antenna attached to it to transmit radio signals you would need another few tests.

in your case ... the best thing to do is have an Electrical inspector come over and take a look at your a setup, he /she will give some hints and tips on making it better and then revisit you after their suggestions are complete. Phone the Inspection department let them know what you are doing and ask if one of the inspectors can come over and look at your set up, be ready to make some mods they ask for.

it could cost you a few hundred or maybe they will do probono depending on the project, but they can give you a one off tag for it especially if it is temporary, and will satisfy the powers that be.

BTW I just wanted to say you guys are crazy, I spent the last week reading most of the posts here at planet and must admit I am impressed I went out to the stores today and picked up 7500 mini's, as I am getting bored with static displays.

have a great year.

Bill

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Dan if you need some help getting it certified let me know, I have the contacts for you and it will be a little bit more then 2500 for your tests if you are the manufacturer, we spend between $7000 and $30,000 for our controllers.

Have a great year

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Another thought - I dont know what the Canadian position is, but if you were doing this in the USA in a public place then you would almost certainly fall under the NEC regs for entertainment cabling, which would require you to use hard service cords, all very different to what the typical LORer uses...

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blearning wrote:

Dan if you need some help getting it certified let me know, I have the contacts for you and it will be a little bit more then 2500 for your tests if you are the manufacturer, we spend between $7000 and $30,000 for our controllers.

Have a great year

Blearning,

Thanks! We have successfully gone through certification on one of our controllers and we do have a test lab just a few miles away that we used. I may take you up on some advice..
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Zac

I own a UL/Cul control panel company, and UL and CSA do not reconize each other.

What you might be able to do since the boards are not CSA approved is have a panel shop that does CSA control panels build the boxes with a GFCI breaker in the CSA approved enclosure. This sometimes works for UL if the boards were not labeled UL

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LightORama wrote:

blearning wrote:
Dan if you need some help getting it certified let me know, I have the contacts for you and it will be a little bit more then 2500 for your tests if you are the manufacturer, we spend between $7000 and $30,000 for our controllers.

Have a great year

Blearning,

Thanks! We have successfully gone through certification on one of our controllers and we do have a test lab just a few miles away that we used. I may take you up on some advice..

On the business side of things....

I have to add to what blearning said. Of course keep in mind every state and it's inspectors are different but in Oklahoma City, they require a higher rated cord (the round thicker cords) than just lamp/zip cord. With my amusement ride business, I had to replace every 2 wire extension cord (I bought from a store) and had to replace it to their mandated ratings. Even for a temp thing, I had to do that. I hope this won't effect you but it's possible. Check with your city office Electrical Inspector and get the facts before getting too deap in this. Hundreds or thousands of feet of cord replacement might be very costly. I'm looking into this issue with my inspectors as well. Residential shows are for the most part not a huge concern but when getting in the business side of things, look out.

Just my 2 cents, Tom
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Santas Helper wrote:

On the business side of things....

I have to add to what blearning said. Of course keep in mind every state and it's inspectors are different but in Oklahoma City, they require a higher rated cord (the round thicker cords) than just lamp/zip cord. With my amusement ride business, I had to replace every 2 wire extension cord (I bought from a store) and had to replace it to their mandated ratings. Even for a temp thing, I had to do that. I hope this won't effect you but it's possible. Check with your city office Electrical Inspector and get the facts before getting too deap in this. Hundreds or thousands of feet of cord replacement might be very costly. I'm looking into this issue with my inspectors as well. Residential shows are for the most part not a huge concern but when getting in the business side of things, look out.

Just my 2 cents, Tom

Thanks Tom, good advice. The cords we use and sell are UL approved and we use outdoor/weather resistant cords. They are the round cords that you mention.
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LightORama wrote:

Santas Helper wrote:
On the business side of things....

I have to add to what blearning said. Of course keep in mind every state and it's inspectors are different but in Oklahoma City, they require a higher rated cord (the round thicker cords) than just lamp/zip cord. With my amusement ride business, I had to replace every 2 wire extension cord (I bought from a store) and had to replace it to their mandated ratings. Even for a temp thing, I had to do that. I hope this won't effect you but it's possible. Check with your city office Electrical Inspector and get the facts before getting too deap in this. Hundreds or thousands of feet of cord replacement might be very costly. I'm looking into this issue with my inspectors as well. Residential shows are for the most part not a huge concern but when getting in the business side of things, look out.

Just my 2 cents, Tom

Thanks Tom, good advice. The cords we use and sell are UL approved and we use outdoor/weather resistant cords. They are the round cords that you mention.

Thanks Dan, how much are your cords? I might have overlooked them on your web sight.

Tom
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LightORama wrote:

Santas Helper wrote:
Thanks Dan, how much are your cords? I might have overlooked them on your web sight.

Tom
Do not recall off the top of my head. You can check at http://store.lightorama.com/accessories.html

Thanks Dan, I found it. And yes, the SJTW type cord is what they required me to use. It could be a 2 wire or 3 wire as long as it was SJ series. Looking at what you have, I'm thinking longer 2 wire cords for my lights. But, before I go and buy a lot of them, I'm going to check with the city inspectors FIRST to see if the lamp cord might be acceptible for the light show (I doubt it though). It doesn't cost anything to ask.

Thanks again Dan, Tom
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