Copyrighted songs

[ronkinch]

After spending the endless hours making a sequence to a Trans Siberian Orchestra song someone asked me if I needed permission to use the song. i had not thought of that before and it got me to wondering if I indeed would end up in jail for the rest of my life and not be able to make a LOR display next year :-) Tis is in the context of a church so perhaps CCLI would make it legal but I am not sure of that either since the song will be broadcast outside of the church on FM radio. Maybe CCLI only pertains to copyrighted music used in services inside the church. I know there are endless copyrighted songs in the LOR shows I have viewed and wondered if this is a consideration which I must do something about. I sure don't want to spend dollars and hours on songs and then be shutdown by a lawyer who does not have the Christmas spirit. 

[gc75067]

you shouldnt get in trouble.  is it any different than your neighbor blasting music and you can hear it?

 

you are not file sharing or doing anything to give someone else the music.  you  might be opening a can of worms if you were charging people to watch your show but i doubt otherwise.

[Tim Fischer]

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, always seek legal help for an official answer, yadda yadda.

Short answer - if you're doing a private display on residential property and not charging admission, then you are OK.  If you're charging admission of any kind, or making money off of your display via donations, then you will have to pay licensing for the songs (e.g. BMI/ASCAP etc)

[caniac]

After spending the endless hours making a sequence to a Trans Siberian Orchestra song someone asked me if I needed permission to use the song. i had not thought of that before and it got me to wondering if I indeed would end up in jail for the rest of my life and not be able to make a LOR display next year :-) Tis is in the context of a church so perhaps CCLI would make it legal but I am not sure of that either since the song will be broadcast outside of the church on FM radio. Maybe CCLI only pertains to copyrighted music used in services inside the church. I know there are endless copyrighted songs in the LOR shows I have viewed and wondered if this is a consideration which I must do something about. I sure don't want to spend dollars and hours on songs and then be shutdown by a lawyer who does not have the Christmas spirit. 

In theory as long as you purchased the music from some place like iTunes then there are "fair use" rights that allow you to play the music.  The copyright laws are centered around taking someone else's music and "profiting" from it.  If you are really concerned about those issues then purchase the sequences/music from somewhere like WowLights who have taken care of the legal issues in an effort to market what they sell.

[MikeyRo]

In theory as long as you purchased the music from some place like iTunes then there are "fair use" rights that allow you to play the music.  The copyright laws are centered around taking someone else's music and "profiting" from it.  If you are really concerned about those issues then purchase the sequences/music from somewhere like WowLights who have taken care of the legal issues in an effort to market what they sell.

Any idea as to what WowLights actually does to get permission? Do they actually sell the music too? I have no purchased any sequences from them, so I am just asking. I personally go on the "fair use" assumption for the songs I use in my humble little show. No commercial use, not admission, heck, have not even been able to video it and put it on YouTube yet.

[caniac]

Any idea as to what WowLights actually does to get permission? Do they actually sell the music too? I have no purchased any sequences from them, so I am just asking. I personally go on the "fair use" assumption for the songs I use in my humble little show. No commercial use, not admission, heck, have not even been able to video it and put it on YouTube yet.

Not exactly sure but they don't sell the sequences (with the music) if they don't have permission to by the artist.  They do have some they sell without music but tell you were on Amazon or iTunes to get the music they used.  They are pretty tight that way.

[Orville]

Does anyone recall the link to this very type of discussion where The Demented Elf actually delved into this and got answers for a lot of us that had always wondered about this issue?     In that thread is a lot of great info, but unfortunately I no longer have it myself, had to replace a failed HD in my laptop where I had saved it to my favorites, but when the HD went belly up, so did the link to that thread.

 

So if anyone knows where it is, could you please post it, as I think it's the best thread for explaining a lot of the OP's issues he's thinking about.

[WilliamS]

This link?

 

http://forums.lightorama.com/index.php?/topic/15631-song-permission/?p=146423

[ronkinch]

Thanks so much for the link to this subject, Based upon the amount of threads on this in that sequence, clearly I am not the first one to be concerned about this subject. That conclusively eliminates my concern and "the show will go on". Thanks people!

[WilliamS]

Main point is dont profit from this.  Dont sell tickets to see the house, dont sell the videos online.  Stay away from words like profit, income, gain, or benefit.

[rainyoregonchristmas]

I actually did contact an artist last year and asked permission.  His agent was stunned that someone would ask.  They'd actually never had someone ask to use a song in a Christmas light show before.  It was going to be $50 per song, and NO videos or recordings for one type of license.  For another you  had to pay for the time it would be used.  It would have cost me if I remember like a few hundred dollars to have permission to make a video and post it online for six months.  Needless to say, I opted out of rights for a video, so no one will ever see my show.  But! they did allow me at NO cost, to use the song in my show for one month. 

 

-RainyOregonchriStmaS

[PMC]

This is and will always be a grey area, and I said this before...lets go back a few years with Carson Williams and do the math

 

1) Carson posts a video with TSO music

2) video goes viral

3) TSO gets new fan base

4) Carson goes into business and semi-retirement

5) TSO goes on tour

Edited April 3, 2013 by PMC

[Orville]

This link?

 

http://forums.lightorama.com/index.php?/topic/15631-song-permission/?p=146423

Thanks William!   That WAS the one!

[Tim Fischer]

This is and will always be a grey area, and I said this before...lets go back a few years with Carson Williams and do the math

 

1) Carson posts a video with TSO music

2) video goes viral

3) TSO gets new fan base

4) Carson goes into business and semi-retirement

5) TSO goes on tour

Not to nitpick, but TSO was touring long before Carson, both as TSO and as Savatage.  In fact, Carson was invited to one of their shows the same month the video went viral.

[PMC]

Savatage, I liked Hall of the Mountain King,  good stuff

 

Yes, TSO was on tour long before WiW, but the numbers of people that never would have attended that concert if it wasn't for the fact they saw the Wizards in Winter video. and that alone increased the TSO fan base.

also, TSO had a contest a few years ago and invited all sequencers who lived in the cities that TSO was playing in to submit a video of a TSO song done to lights, and the winner got to go to Chicago for the end of tour party.

 

I was implying that if we can't use copyrighted music in our craft, then the artist can potentially lose a whole new audience because we exposed their song to a person who never heard of them , so it's a catch 22

Edited April 4, 2013 by PMC

[TonyD]

Has anyone ever investigated what the copyright issues are (if any) if you use the "audio preview" from iTunes? Most songs are 90 seconds, which is more than enough if you wanted to splice together several songs.

[PMC]

There is a test for musicians for these type of questions I copied and pasted what your question involves

 

 

You probably know that sampling involves taking a portion of an existing song or sound recording and placing it into a new sound recording. How much of a song or sound recording can you sample without authorization from the copyright owner before you've committed copyright infringement?

 

1. 4 Notes
2. 8 Bars
3. There's no specific amount

Answer - C. There's no specific amount

The fair use exception allows you to use a reasonable portion of a copyrighted work without running afoul of copyright law. Unfortunately, there's no bright line rule to determine how much is too much for fair use. Whether or not your use of a song or sound recording is a fair use depends on the circumstances and on a number of factors such as how much of the work you use and for what purposes you use it. In general, it's easier to qualify the use of a song as a fair use than it is to qualify the use of a sound recording as a fair use. Using eight or four or even two bars does not guarantee that your use is a fair use. Taking only a few words or notes from a song or a sound recording has been found to be copyright infringement.

 

[TonyD]

There is a test for musicians for these type of questions I copied and pasted what your question involves

 

 

You probably know that sampling involves taking a portion of an existing song or sound recording and placing it into a new sound recording. How much of a song or sound recording can you sample without authorization from the copyright owner before you've committed copyright infringement?

 

1. 4 Notes
2. 8 Bars
3. There's no specific amount

Answer - C. There's no specific amount

The fair use exception allows you to use a reasonable portion of a copyrighted work without running afoul of copyright law. Unfortunately, there's no bright line rule to determine how much is too much for fair use. Whether or not your use of a song or sound recording is a fair use depends on the circumstances and on a number of factors such as how much of the work you use and for what purposes you use it. In general, it's easier to qualify the use of a song as a fair use than it is to qualify the use of a sound recording as a fair use. Using eight or four or even two bars does not guarantee that your use is a fair use. Taking only a few words or notes from a song or a sound recording has been found to be copyright infringement.

 

 

Thanks PMC - Clear as mud!

[rainyoregonchristmas]

(said with a wink, as not to be misunderstood)

1,2,3? Nope, the answer is C.

That made my day. After working all day on my honey do list, I needed a smile.

[PMC]

good catch, I didn't even notice that,  when I copied from the original page it was A, B and C, but it pasted 1,2 & 3 , well to me its fitting for the laws around copyrights because its just as confusing

Edited April 7, 2013 by PMC