Where to put GFI?

[FarrOut]

Probably opening a can of worms here, but let's see what happens.

I'm putting new service for my four 16 channel controllers.

I presume building code will require GFI outlets since they will be outside the house on the (covered) porch.

 

Using standard two wire light strings, will the GFI trip if there is a path to ground on any of the channels?

Thanks

Dennis

[shfr26]

Open a can of worms????   Surely you jest!!  Who would ever start an argument about GFCI'S???

[SparkDr]

Without reading too much into the question, the simple answer is yes.  I'm guessing that you're probably wondering how a ground fault works when the light string doesn't have a ground plug.  Here's a pretty good explanation:  If an appliance is working properly, all electricity that the appliance uses will flow from hot to neutral. A GFCI monitors the amount of current flowing from hot to neutral. If there is any imbalance, it trips the circuit. It is able to sense a mismatch as small as 4 or 5 milliamps, and it can react as quickly as one-thirtieth of a second.

[FarrOut]

Thanks for that.  I understand it's about the current on the hot vs. neutral, but does the supply side of the control box show an imbalance if any of the outputs do?  I presume so.

[-klb-]

Yes.

[TheJackal]

Would you even need the ground to be connected since its not being used by the lights?

[-klb-]

If the hardware mounting the hear sinks is exposed outside the case, the heat sinks should be grounded. If the controller is in a metal case, it should be grounded. If there is a chance that a future load might have a ground prong, the dongles should be connected to the inlet ground.

All that said, I have some controllers with custom multi conductor dongles, no downstream grounds, no metal case penetrations, and the inlet cord is a long run of SPT2.

[htebault]

I have all GFI exterior outlets serving the controllers. With the heavy rains this past Christmas I got my exercise on some evenings resetting one controller that had the most sensitive light strings. I was able to minimize problems by making sure the elements were not on the ground and wiring was not lying on the ground.  Other than periods of heavy rains, I avoided probems with GFI for the season.  Glad I installed GFI, and happy to see they work properly. No damage to equipment, and it pushed me to clean up my installation.

One big issue were the small tomato frame trees- They first were just sitting on the ground - After I used PVC pipe to stand them up away from the ground, it fixed most of my issues.

[john fulkerson]

keep your plugs off the ground is very good idea lol

also the cat 5 cable couplings are not water prrof they caused a lot of my problems with no signal

I wrapped some of them in plastic and taped them the rest I spliced together

[Orville]

If you don't want to use GFCI outlets, you can have the electrician install GFCI Circuit Breakers in the electrical junction box instead. 

 

This is the way I'm planning on doing it as soon as I can afford to get a certified electrician at my house to install new outdoor outlets completely around the perimeter of my home, electrical outlets will be standard outdoor outlets fed from GFCI Circuit Breakers in my main braker box since I have room for 5 new circuits to be added.  

 

I just think it would be much easier to replace a bad GFCI CB in a junction box, or sub junction box, as opposed to having to rewire a new GFCI outlet when one would go bad, and I've had to replace a couple of GFCI outlets that went bad.

 

Just my opinion, but either way works fine as long as they are wired properly. 

 

Just beware as I have found that there are some GFCI outlets out there that will accept incorrect wiring, then supply power to the receptacle, but the GFCI circuit protection isn't enabled, so if any faults occur, it will never trip and shut off the power!

[SparkDr]

Just a couple of thoughts on the GFI breaker idea. As an electrician, I would recommend against it for a couple of reasons. First, they are about 4 times as expensive to buy (and therefore replace) as a GFI receptacle. Additionally, most electricians will charge some type of premium to work live in a panel vs replacing GFI receptacles on an unenergized circuit. I have found Leviton brand GFI's with their smart-lok feature to be very dependable and the smart-lok feature does not allow them to set or be reset unless proper GFI protection is intact. I have a bank of 4 GFI receptacles wired in line / load configuration next to each other right beside the panel box in the basement to power my controllers. I don't have anything plugged in directly to these GFI's. The line / load configuration provides GFI protection to everything else downline in the circuit, so i have them run to standard receptacles mounted outside. This gives me quick access to and identification of a tripped GFI and I don't have to walk outside to reset a GFI. When and if I do have to change a worn or failed GFI receptacle, I will be standing up in the warm, well-lit comfort of my basement rather than kneeling down in cold, wet snow outside in the dark. I have even gone so far as to match the phases of my electrical service to each controller to eliminate any 240v potential within the enclosures, but that's an entirely different discussion to get into.

[SparkDr]

I have heard repeatedly over the years that some people prefer GFI breakers over GFI receptacles because folks seem to believe they last longer, don't have as many nuisance trips, etc. I don't agree with it, but to each their own, I guess. GFI breakers are a fine choice. What I will add is a simple theory based on years of field electrical experience that I believe contributes to this perception. When an new GFI breaker is installed into a panel, the neutral wire for the circuit is removed from the neutral bar and attached to the breaker. A new neutral connection is made to the neutral bar via the wire which comes attached to the new breaker and a new hot wire connection is made to the breaker. My point is this...every connection is new and therefore tight. I believe that many GFI nuisance trips are caused or exaggerated by loose connections within the panel box. Most panel boxes are installed when the home is new and are then forgotten. However, most manufacturers recommend re-torquing all terminations within the box after the first year. I have oftentimes gained a full turn and a half or better on the connections when performing this service. And no, I don't use a torque screwdriver. Tight is tight in my book. No specialty tool confirmation necessary. If you are comfortable working within your electrical box and have never thought about this, you may want to give it a try. I'd love to hear back on just how loose you guys might find these connections to be. This tip won't solve every problem, but it will eliminate a variable when tracing down a gremlin or two. FYI - I don't recommend turning off the main breaker in your panel unless you absolutely have to. Sometimes, the older ones don't like to reset & mains can be pretty pricey to replace. Instead throw each breaker individually & don't forget to snug the neutral and ground bar connections. Use a slotted screwdriver whenever possible on multi-drive headed screws. Despite what you might think, you will get it tighter with a slotted than with a phillips or square drive. Trust me...I learned that one by being on the wrong end of an old-timer's sucker bet. That decrepit old man easily got a full quarter turn more after I nearly popped a blood vessel getting it as tight as I could with the phillips head. One last thought...if you're not comfortable working in your panel, stay out of it. Christmas lights are not worth the risk to your health or safety.

[avsphan]

I'm going with everything that SparkDr said...