Tracking down a short

[Klayfish]

Progress, but still have issues. Every electrical connection is now off the ground. The lights now work when the ground is wet, but they won't work when it's actually raining. So water is still getting into somewhere when the rain falls. Just watching the forecast and hoping for dry weather...

[Orville]

I had issues like that, but ONLY during the show, checking the controllers independantly and even turning them all on full on everything via the HWU, never tripped the GFCI, show starts and the GFCI would trip. Like to drove me crazy.

My solutions:

#1. All power cord/extension cord connections raised off the ground using 2 green plastic yard light stakes at each connection.

#2. Using PLASTIC brown tent stakes to stake down my wire frame deer, also moved all lights on wire frames that were close to the ground up a couple of inches on the wire frames.

#3. Used PLASTIC child proof outlet caps on ALL exposed female pass throughs and end of strand connections. Also put these in any UNUSED dongle from all controllers.

#4. I use extension cords that have covers on their female ends so they can be closed to keep moisture out, if I have some that don't, I modify the plastic child outlet caps to fit and plug those in any unused open female connections on an extension cord with multiple connection points.

#5. I use dielectric grease in all my incan and LED light sockets, including blowmold houshold lamp and C7 sockets.

I have never had a GFCI trip since doing this on my display. The only GFCI issue I had was when the GFCI actually went bad and had to be replaced due to old age.

But what works for my setup may or may not work for others.

BTW: All my extension cords all are on the ground, only the connections are off the ground by 2-3 inches using the green light stakes.

[De Trommelslager]

Is the controller still laying on the ground? Even under the display element, that could be a problem. Eighteen cord attachment points in close proximity can increase odds of a GFCI trip. Plus there are tons of geckos here as well as other insects, snakes, etc. that would love to crawl in there and make themselves at home. Somewhere recently there was a thread about a critter and a controller, neither came out of that encounter very well. And yes, many of these very critters can crawl up the cords and do the same thing; being on the ground makes the enclosure a little more enticing for a squatter.

A pin hole in the insulation of a wire can cause a GFCI trip. With the amount of extension cords you have on the display, there is a lot of opportunity for a bad spot to be present. If any of the cords cross an area where water tends to puddle or run, move the cord(s) from that area if possible, or raise them up to avoid being submerged in water.

Light strings in bushes/trees also leave some opportunity for problems. Plants are conductive, and even more so when wet. If you have a spot where water can contact both the plant and a conductor, then you can easily have a GFCI trip.

One other thing you might try is replacing the GFCI receptacle. They can become troublesome as they age and are cycled. I am not sure if you have done that yet, but it is a possibility that the device is simply prone to tripping. However with it only happening during the rain there is likely a fault you haven't been able to locate.

Keep at it. Locating a pesky ground fault can be a major pain in the posterior.

[Torqumada286]

The rain is still wrecking havoc with my display. I have been able to track it as far as controller two, but can't narrow it down from there. I think it might be just from the power cords, though, as my isolated mini trees don't seem to trip the GFCI. It might be all of the extension cords.

Regarding mini tree construction: I wonder if spray painting them with something like flex seal might help to isolate them a bit more?

Torqumada

[Max-Paul]

I really would not think that any kind of paint or varnish would make a difference. Now what would make a difference is if the wires are further away from a metal structure that would conduct the current to the ground. A cap is two surfaces in close range not contact. To wrap your head about it. take a sheet of paper and two slightly smaller sheets of foil. Now make a sandwich with the paper in the middle and the foil in front and behind the paper. Attach a wire to both sheets of foil. You have a basic cap now. Add one more sheet of paper on top, and now you can roll it up. Still a cap. So each time a wire with insulation touches the wire of the tomato cage you have a cap. But each time it touches you have another cap in parallel. Caps in parallel add up the amount to make it look like one larger cap. A plan cap acts like a resistor to A.C. current. With out getting into the deep theory of it all, just believe that you will have current flow through a plain cap. This current adds up in each mini tree, cord on the ground, or anything else that would conduct current directly or indirect via the cap effect. Once you exceed a given amount (about .04 amps). Been some years, but I think it was something about .01 one starts to feel a tingle of shock. And as little as .1 amp can kill a person.

[Torqumada286]

Been some years, but I think it was something about .01 one starts to feel a tingle of shock. And as little as .1 amp can kill a person.

Actually the 10 milliamp AC threshold interferes with voluntary muscle control, making someone unable to let go of whatever is shocking them. It's 30 milliamps AC and higher that can cause ventricular fibrillation which can lead to death, if the skin is intact. If you can bypass the resistance of the skin, the amperage needed to stop...and start the heart can be much lower down the the microamps. I know that when we pace a heart with transcutaneous pacing we treat in milliamps, but I don't recall how high our monitors will go off the top of my head. IIRC, internal pacemakers run on the microamp range.

Torqumada

[Max-Paul]

Thanks Torq,

Been many years ago and well what can I say other than the memory aint what it used to be.

[Torqumada286]

I may convert my tomato cage mini trees to PVC for next year.

Torqumada

[beeiilll]

A couple of things that may help you out here as well.

Get some of the clear plastic storage bins from a dollar store or where ever and when you put your controller out you can put it in the container or put the congtroller on something to raise it up off the ground just a bit and then place the storage container over it upside down to protect the wiring and plugs from rain and moisture.

You can take plastic soda bottles and cut the neck off of them and place them over cord connections raised up off the ground as well. It is a simple way to keep rain and moisture out of electrical connections. If you want, you can even paint the soda bottles with something like Krylon fusion paint for plastic to hide them even more.

You do not want to make them so tight that they will hold water in but just something to keep the water from spraying directly on the connections.

[viennaxmas]

One thing I have done for the mega trees is to use 10ft cords wired directly in the controllers instead of the 1 ft dongles. The cables coming out of the controller perfectly reach all my light strings and I have reduced the number of connections ( and possible water getting into them) by 50%...

Next project would be to convert the tons of plugs on the leaping arches to a single Multi-pin plug...

This also cuts down on setup time.

[LightShowGeek]

I been having similar issues (first year of issues) and been asking on this thread http://forums.lightorama.com/index.php?/topic/25277-weather-causing-gfis-to-trip-out/ but when I read this topic; you guys almost described my setup. Long story short every time it rains the GFI trips (lots of run…) got it narrow down to the mini trees (6 mini trees with 300 lights each); I am not sure but I think only 1 tree is giving the problem unless like everyone says, a little bit of current leak here and there adds up and therefore is not just one but all 6 of them. Each light set by itself is fine; any combination of 2 is fine; it is when I have all 3 lights sets plugged in that trips the GFI.

The lights are brand new (one would expect to not be damaged). Here are some pictures on how I have my mini trees setup. As you can see all the plugs point down to keep the water dripping out and the end plus are the same. Also the plugs are off the ground; the only thing touching the ground is the mini tree itself (wire structure). I painted mine for looks more than anything else as I am sure paint is not going to stop the current from passing. The end of the trees (bottom part) is actually pushed in to the earth about 1 to 1.5 inches plus I also have aluminum camping stakes (I get quite a bit of wind current between my house and the neighbors; also the ground is not completely flat). The trees aren’t going anywhere unless there is a tornado. Reading this topic made me realize I might be grounding my trees but if the lights strings are not damaged can the current leak still occur?

I was getting ready to go to the store to buy new lights (again) but I am thinking maybe I should just get the trees off the ground (either pvc plugs or wood blocks for the legs) just to break the connection with the ground and see what happens.

[TGabriel]

Why not just spray the bottom half of the tomato cage with Plastickote or bedliner spray you can buy in a can.

Thomas

[Steven]

In many displays, it is not one element that causes a GFCI trip, but several that make it trip when they are turned on at the same time. I finally bit the bullet and bought this tester to help me narrow the problem down:

Using this, I found that one group of lights on a bush was leaking 2.5 mA. (5mA is the threshold for a typical GFCI.) My 12v RGB ribbons were leaking another 1.8 mA, probably because the plastic container that houses the power supply did not have enough ventilation. I fixed those two problems, and now we'll see if the show runs tonight.

[k6ccc]

Not to throw a wet towel on this discussion, but I see a problem with insulating the tomato cage from ground. Yes, it will keep the GFCI from tripping, but it can create a safety issue. Assuming an actual fault resulting in a connection between a wire and the metal of the tomato cage, and with the cage insulated from ground, you now have an energized tomato cage. If someone touches the cage and is reasonably grounded, you just created a current path between the energized cage and ground through the person. Granted that should then trip the GFCI. This is not an issue if the situation is only capacitive coupling from many different sources that add up to enough leakage to trip the GFCI, but in the event of an actual insulation fault resulting in the cage energized, a safety problem is created.

The big problem is that with the cage insulated, you will NOT get a GFCI trip until someone completes the path from cage to ground. You could have energized cages and never know it until someone gets across it to ground.

Makes me quite happy that everything in the yard is running on DC through isolated power supplies. We have gotten quite a bit of rain this month and no problems here from it .

[Max-Paul]

K6CCC, Jim,

One is kind of in between a rock and a hard place. Damned if you do and Damned if you dont. If, and just if the insulation actually cracks and energizes the wire cage. Then all of my faith would be that the GFI does its job. But one is more likely to remove the GFI if I cant get my lights to work at all cause of the leaks (capacitive). I am going to elect to have my tomato cages raised above ground and rely on the GFI. I mean thats why we have this GFI, right? Got to draw the line somewhere.

[k6ccc]

Got that right M-P!

Like I said, glad everything I am running is on 5 or 12V DC...

[Max-Paul]

Hey, so whats with the 1 8 ch and 2 16 ch A.C. controllers in your tag, all about? BTW impressive list for your display.

[k6ccc]

I bought the two 16 channel AC controllers used early on without having a definite use for them (it was a good deal from LOR partner here on the forum). I am using 3 channels on one of them for 3 can lights in the ceiling of the bay window in the front of my house. Next year I might use some channels for stuff on the roof (both controllers are mounted inside my attic). When I get inspired to find the wires, the front porch light will also get hooked into one of them. The 8 channel board will be mounted in my garage and used for 2 porch type wall lights on the front of the garage and an identical light at the end of a concrete block wall. All of these are permanent installations fed with conduit.

Keep in mind that the list is just the year round landscape lighting. Most of it is RGB, so the channel count goes up in a hurry. The LOR DC controllers are all driving RGB dumb strips in one form or another. A bunch of the 2811 smart strip is just to make my life a lot easier from a wiring standpoint - and it gives me HUGE flexibility come holiday seasons. I just did a little animation (no music) for Christmas this year with only 1,803 channels.

[Torqumada286]

After the rain here Christmas day (9th year in a row), I spent the day after Christmas doing some repair work and found that one of my spotlights has been leaking. Not only did it burn the bulb out, but the bulb became separated from the screw thread and it's fused to the fixture. I guess it wasn't as sealed as well as I thought it was. It was on the second controller that had been giving me problems. Time to get a new spotlight fixture and light. Next year, I'll have shorter power cords runs as well.

Torqumada

[Torqumada286]

Another step forward. After I removed the faulty spotlight, I had wrapped Santa in some 5mm LEDs (my preferred type) so he would be illuminated at the appropriate times. It rained last night pretty hard, but after the show had run for the evening. I went out to look at things this morning and there was plenty of standing water. I decided to fire up the show and see what happens. Everything ran fine, when it would kick off half way through the first song. I guess I found the problem. Still, I will work harder at weather proofing things for next year.

Torqumada